sNews Forum

Previous sNews versions => sNews 1.7 RC => sNews 1.7 RC => Topic started by: Armen on April 06, 2008, 09:12:57 AM

Title: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Armen on April 06, 2008, 09:12:57 AM
Hello again. Let's be serious for a minute here.

As you know, in the world, many projects evolve, bloom and bring joy to the users. Some of them become widely used and popular.
But some of them suddenly die. But is their death so sudden? Not at all! It's consecutive.

First I'd like to start with Luka's idea: "sNews as a ONE-file CMS. Simple, but powerful."

Up to it's 1.6 version, sNews was following its creator's dream: small, logical, ONE-file-driven, not overloaded with useless junk and well designed.

Sorry mates. With upcoming release of 1.7 you're going to obliterate sNews, NOT improve it.

Why? Ohhhhhhh... There are SOOO many reasons why... I'll tell you. But first of all, I'd like to thank EQ, Phil, Codie and Joost (and Bob?) for doing something REALLY connected to "upgrading" and not "overloading and obliterating" sNews. Thank you guys. Keep on going.

As for others and their ideas... Sorry mates. I'm completely blown away by the results.

Lets see some of those 1.7 "achievements":

PROS:
(+) Speed improvement. Yes, you did it Joost! Your quieries work extremely fast. Well done.
(+) Admin articles filtering. Good idea. But drafty in its implementation.

PROS ENDS HERE. (Surprised? Me too.)
-------------------------------------------------

CONS:

(-) "Stock" template is GOD-AWFUL ! Have you even looked at it it after finishing it? It's horrible! And for CSS-styles. Are you kidding me??? IE-specific styles? In such a simple template??? Template for sNews HAS to be as simple as possible! Forget additional CSS styles! This is not funny! Bring back old template before you infuriate the GOD himself. sNews template is just for presentation and this... This is a-w-f-u-l.
(-) Thank you invabrass. Thank you for introduction of GLOBAL-scope variables. Thank you SO much.
I'm not going to tell you why I'm SO happy, I'm just going to point you here: http://php.net/global
As one smart person said: "Hmm, globals are a pretty poor solution and are pretty much forbidden in object oriented programming."
Thank you once again.
(-) thumbs.dll file in sNews package. Bravo!
(-) What the hell have you done to the "readme.html" file??? Who did this? Those colors, those margins! Is it now written for aliens or for people witout taste? Repulsive spectacle... And the purple line at the top of the file? So sweet...
(-) Thank you for the new table: extras. Do extras need their own table? You're kidding, right? RIGHT??? Wasn't that invabrass' idea again?
(-) new site() function sucks balls. (BTW: before it, everything worked fine even without RewriteBase parameter in .htaccess.). It's redunant and useless. Generates wrong base-hrefs.
(-) Readme says: "ONE-file CMS" and after that: "sNews consists of one ‘engine’ file (snews.php), one language file (snews_EN.php), one XHTML file (index.php) for content presentation, one stylesheet (style.css) for content styling and one javascript file for functionality". Are you kidding? You think this is funny? You've splitted snews for NO REASON. js()  and l() worked just fine inside snews. Why touch them? And, btw, "admin.js" needs translation. Yeah. You even *ucked up here. Instead of using js() inside snews with language vars, or at least calling language-vars you use hardcoded sentences. Bravo!
(-) This:
(http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/1803/sucksog2.png)
is awful. Can't you see it? I'm not only talking about margins here. Split them with "|"...
(-) And moooooore...

So...
I'm stunned.

If you release THIS abomination as "sNews 1.7 final", I'll leave this forum forever.
I'll stick with sNews 1.6 and release an unlimited-subcat version based on 1.6 - the latest REAL sNews.

Thank you for your attention.

P.S. This post stinks, but it stays here the way it was written.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Patric Ahlqvist on April 06, 2008, 01:10:57 PM
First, Armen... this type of behavior is NOT accepted. You are, by all means, entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to personal attacks, and furthermore putting someones words and opinions out to be a truth without having something to back it up with...

I will not argue with you on what works better as I have not the knowhow, you beat me on this any day, I'm sure. But I will, however, stand up and tell you off as you are exceeding the limit of bad behavior.

Luka's statements and opinions are his, and his alone, which you cannot bring out of context and use as you see fit. Have you been involved in any way during development of sNews 1.7, and heard (viewed) Lukas opinion, as you see them, being told. Have you ? Is there any chance, do you think, that Luka have OK'ed this development ?

You can mention all of the pro's and con's in a entirly different manner, Armen. There is no fecking need for all the dripping irony and personal attacks.

Just STOP this, and do it now, man. What is released is an RC, and if you would bring forward reasonable critisism, and furthermore come up with a better way of dealing with things, which would improve what you think is not improved, then, possibly then would anyone listen to your, what I can't descibe as nothing else than "rantings from a disappointed user". there is not a single constructive critisism in your post. Do you sincerely believe anyone will listen to it ? My advice to you is to edit your post as soon as possible, and make it non ironic, constrictive, and toned down.

I am stunned. I am dissapointed at this behavior from what I have come to think was a distinguished member of the sNews form.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: centered on April 06, 2008, 01:13:50 PM

CONS:

(-) Thank you invabrass. Thank you for introduction of GLOBAL-scope variables. Thank you SO much.
I'm not going to tell you why I'm SO happy, I'm just going to point you here: http://php.net/global
As one smart person said: "Hmm, globals are a pretty poor solution and are pretty much forbidden in object oriented programming."
Thank you once again.

(-) thumbs.dll file in sNews package. Bravo!
(-) What the hell have you done to the "readme.html" file??? Who did this? Those colors, those margins! Is it now written for aliens or for people witout taste? Repulsive spectacle... And the purple line at the top of the file? So sweet...
(-) Thank you for the new table: extras. Do extras need their own table? You're kidding, right? RIGHT??? Wasn't that invabrass' idea again?
(-) new site() function sucks balls. (BTW: before it, everything worked fine even without RewriteBase parameter in .htaccess.). It's redunant and useless. Generates wrong base-hrefs.
(-) Readme says: "ONE-file CMS" and after that: "sNews consists of one ‘engine’ file (snews.php), one language file (snews_EN.php), one XHTML file (index.php) for content presentation, one stylesheet (style.css) for content styling and one javascript file for functionality". Are you kidding? You think this is funny? You've splitted snews for NO REASON. js()  and l() worked just fine inside snews. Why touch them? And, btw, "admin.js" needs translation. Yeah. You even *ucked up here. Instead of using js() inside snews with language vars, or at least calling language-vars you use hardcoded sentences. Bravo!
(-) This:
(http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/1803/sucksog2.png)
is awful. Can't you see it? I'm not only talking about margins here. Split them with "|"...
(-) And moooooore...

2. Explain why globals are bad.
3. Your kidding, this is a RC. I didn't see a complaint about the DS_Store file or the .Mac folder...
5. The table is for extra groupings (http://snewscms.com/forum/index.php?topic=6742.0)
6. Do you have a link of something to reference that bug?
7. The Language file is meant to be downloadable and placed in the languages folder and changed in the settings. JS is only for the admin section, so it doesn't "really" need to be a part of the core (wonders if same argument would have been applied to 1.4 - js was everywhere and not needed).  Hardcoded sentences, in the core, where?
8. It's an RC... this can be fixed with CSS
9. What more?  Can you be constructive and list items you feel are bugs (alot are valid IMO) and improvements in the bugs forum.  I, at least, would like to hear your ideas and suggestions.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Ken Dahlin on April 06, 2008, 01:26:09 PM
Hidden in your post were at least two valid points completely swamped out by your sarcastic (bordering on hateful) tone. I wish you had approached this in a different way.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Armen on April 06, 2008, 01:38:26 PM
First, Armen... this type of behavior is NOT accepted. You are, by all means, entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to personal attacks, and furthermore putting someones words and opinions out to be a truth without having something to back it up with...
Have you been involved in any way during development of sNews 1.7, and heard (viewed) Lukas opinion, as you see them, being told. Have you ?

I'm a nobody, Patric.
Rui and You made it perfectly clear. It's okay, relax.

As soon as sNews 1.7 is out, I'm out of here for good.
Great idea needs constancy. There's not much of such an idea in the further development that "sNews Dudes" back up.
Go on, turn sNews into code dump, but don't forget that real consistent sNews builds belong to Luka and Mika, not you.

BTW: Interested, what I expected would be 1.7? Here: subcats, sql improvements, best boosters in the core, code cleanup, archive and sitemap speedups, article insertion mod, codie's admin mod, bugfixes. That's it. Small steps are the best for the development.

Call me any way you want, my behaviour is a sane behavoiur of a person, expecting something consecutive and getting something completely opposite. We were expecting sNews and what did we get? A code dump. A sandbox for "sNews Dudes". Luka and Mika would never let that happen.

Quote
Hidden in your post were at least two valid points completely swamped out by your sarcastic (bordering on hateful) tone. I wish you had approached this in a different way.

I wish 1.7 was built only by Luka and Mika, so it wouldn't happen at all.

Quote
I am stunned. I am dissapointed at this behavior from what I have come to think was a distinguished member of the sNews form.

One post changes it all? Good thinking, Patrick.

Equilni, you're a really good fellow. But I don't want to participate in development of... this. Ask "sNews Dudes". I'm sure they'll be able to help.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Patric Ahlqvist on April 06, 2008, 01:51:55 PM
Rui and I made what clear ? And where ?

Quote
One post changes it all? Good thinking, Patrick.

Well, you don't improve on your "distinguish level" by posting this crap, Armen.. If you don't have more critisism someone could really benefit from, why wait for 1.7 release, why not leave now ?

I am sincerely interested in what constructive suggestions you have, as this is what RC is for... For God sake, man... If there is something that is not right, this is the place and time to say so, not just rant about things and feeling sorry for one's self. But you persist in not delivering such constructive critisism... Why ?
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Armen on April 06, 2008, 01:58:21 PM
Rui and I made what clear ? And where ?

Quote from: Patrick, a minute ago
Have you been involved in any way during development of sNews 1.7, and heard (viewed) Lukas opinion, as you see them, being told. Have you ?

Oh, sorry. I haven't. Just minding my own business here.

Patrick... I'm not here to increase my post count with useless argues. I'll wait for the result: Luka or Mika comes in, or "sNews Dudes" finalize this 127kb piece of code and call it "sNews 1.7".
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Patric Ahlqvist on April 06, 2008, 02:00:00 PM
I will leave this thread for an hour or two before I do something head over heals... I'm going to a party with my kids.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: funlw65 on April 06, 2008, 02:18:41 PM
Please, forgive Armen, I bet tomorrow will see this with different eyes. Is already cooled down :). About not included things, I think we all can add what we want later. The fundation is very important. One thing it worry me: the new function cleanXSS is enough tested?

P.S. I`m not agreed with Armen`s reaction but this prove one thing: Armen is in love with sNews! Yes, Luka can settle things down making a presentation of sNews ... as is done everywhere....

Forgive me if is not my business...

Quote
Now ogres, oh, they're much worse. They'll make a suit from your freshly peeled skin. They'll shave your liver, squeeze the jelly from your eyes... Actually, it's quite good on toast

But Donkey know is not true  ;)


(http://lh5.google.com/funlw65/R_jBthCm6zI/AAAAAAAADPw/YQAnxKQ3C4M/s400/5025_srk0011_thumb.jpg)
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Keyrocks on April 06, 2008, 05:28:26 PM
Quote from: ARMEN
Hello again. Let's be serious for a minute here.

As you know, in the world, many projects evolve, bloom and bring joy to the users. Some of them become widely used and popular.
But some of them suddenly die. But is their death so sudden? Not at all! It's consecutive.

First I'd like to start with Luka's idea: "sNews as a ONE-file CMS. Simple, but powerful."

@ Armen...
I agree with you on some points but... before you make any decision to leave the Jolly Green sNews Forest Forever... let's clarify a few things first.

1) This RC package was released - as RC packages generally are - as part of the "Input Gathering Phase". None of the alternations in this RC package (beyond the core improvements) are irreversible or carved in stone.

2) The eventual configuration of the "final release" of sNews 1.7 may well be different than that of the RC package. This is to be expected... again... since this is an "Input Gathering Phase".

3) We seek the opinions of all Forum members openly and... in return... expect that those who provide "Input" will do so in a constructive manner... one that contributes to improving sNews in a positive way. We understand that there is always the possibility an Ogre (or two) might get their tongues stuck between their teeth for a moment in time and spit out some regrettable garble... that's life.

You (Armen the Ogre) obviously took this opportunity to provide your input seriously since you went to great lengths to spell out many concerns in your initial post. This suggests you really care about the direction sNews takes in the future. We respect that. Your intent, then, is not to "leave sNews Forever" but to take whatever action you can to make sure the "Dudes" stay on what you believe is the "right track".

4) Mika has not been involved with the sNews project for quite some time now. We miss his valuable contributions too and would have loved to work with him on the 1.7 project.  However... Mika chose to re-focus his mission in life on other priorities last summer. His last visit to these Forums (last time I checked) was sometime last October (2007).

5)  Luka has been very busy working on projects other than sNews for quite some time as well. He chose to appoint 2 Dudes as "1.7 Project Leads". Their job was to enlist the volunteer involvement of several other Dudes. Luka then chose to let the Dev Team(s) choose the list of improvements to be made and take care of the whole process - up to the RC release - on their own.

6) What would be included in the re-development of sNews was determined by a poll of all of the sNews Dudes. The Dudes listed what they believed were the most important items for consideration. I believe there were close to (or more than) 34 items listed... far too many. The list was significantly shortened over a couple of weeks. Luka reviewed the list of inclusions and demonstrated his support of the final short-list.

7) Some of the changes made were not in the "short-list" of items that was prepared before the project started. They were added uding the last few days while getting the RC package prepared for release. Some are certainly reversible. But some make good practical sense to those who agreed to add them in.

Again... all constructive input and suggestions will be considered during this Input Gathering Phase. Negative and personal attacks will be ignored (We are not donkeys). Feel free to edit your original post in any way you wish so that we might consider the positive suggestions provided theren.  ;)
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Rui Mendes on April 06, 2008, 05:31:21 PM
First I'd like to start with Luka's idea: "sNews as a ONE-file CMS. Simple, but powerful."
We dudes, decided (by votes) to split all javascript from the core (php), and put inside js folder. Is better for simple user to understand the code, and js is only available when you are logged, so less code for a visitor.

Like Doug (@Key) said, "None of the alternations in this RC package (beyond the core improvements) are irreversible or carved in stone."

PROS:
1 - (+) Speed improvement. Yes, you did it Joost! Your queries work extremely fast. Well done.
2 - (+) Admin articles filtering. Good idea. But drafty in its implementation.

1 - Yes Joost/Invrass did good work. I contribute a lot doing queries and fix some errors. Remember this is a hard work from snewsdudes.
2 -  Joost and me, we populate our database with many records. So I add articles filtering (miss Fillmoz filter by category), sorry about drafty, me and dudes we try make better.

(-) "Stock" template is GOD-AWFUL.
I'm not a webdesigner but I like the template, it's my opinion.
Maybe more complicate from snews16, but maybe (I said maybe) works better in all browsers.
My friend, seems you understand css, you can make some templates for sNews 1.7 final and share with us on appropiate section (templates)

As one smart person said: "Hmm, globals are a pretty poor solution and are pretty much forbidden in object oriented programming."
OOP is more complex, Luka wants snews very simple for users.

(-) thumbs.dll file in sNews package. Bravo!
Come on..., we forget. If you use windows this file is hidden.

(-) Thank you for the new table: extras. Do extras need their own table? You're kidding, right? RIGHT??? Wasn't that invabrass' idea again?
If you use multiple extras in diferent areas, yes is better. I think is EQ ideia (not sure).

(-) new site() function sucks balls. (BTW: before it, everything worked fine even without RewriteBase parameter in .htaccess.). It's redunant and useless. Generates wrong base-hrefs.
Maybe you're right about this, that's why we have sNews 1.7 RC.

Rui and I made what clear ? And where ?
I'm confuse too, where? I think only told you by PM this version has one level subcategories

If you release THIS abomination as "sNews 1.7 final", I'll leave this forum forever.
I'll stick with sNews 1.6 and release an unlimited-subcat version based on 1.6 - the latest REAL sNews.
Please don't give up, I'm counting on you to have unlimited subcategories. I really apreciate your work and respect your ideias.

Best reagards, my friend
Thank you,
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: invarbrass on April 06, 2008, 06:02:04 PM
(-) Thank you invabrass. Thank you for introduction of GLOBAL-scope variables. Thank you SO much.
I'm not going to tell you why I'm SO happy, I'm just going to point you here: http://php.net/global
As one smart person said: "Hmm, globals are a pretty poor solution and are pretty much forbidden in object oriented programming."
Thank you once again.

The global variables were introduced not on a whim. I had stress-tested snews extensively with several categories and thousands of articles. And I had developed several solutions and tested them, among the globals performed best... I had elaborated it in many of my previous post. Yes, I do agree that globals are poor solution. But then again, PHP itself is a crappy language. So why don't we ditch PHP and re-code snews in C++?

Besides, where did you find OOP code in sNews? Hell, I'll bet 10 bucks if you can even find the word "class" in the entire snews.php file. Just because mixing globals with OOP code is not smart, doesn't mean that globals are bad for snews. Because snews ain't OOP.

(-) Thank you for the new table: extras. Do extras need their own table? You're kidding, right? RIGHT??? Wasn't that invabrass' idea again?

You are wrong again. The extra table was not my idea. It may improve performances, but I'm not sure until I look at it deeply.
However, I did suggest total revamp of the database schema, (no offence but the original schema looked like it was designed by a newbie). I had suggested introducing indexes, referential integrity, constraints into the database. None of them had been implemented in the RC version as of this writing.

I had reported a bug some time ago, i.e. there were lots of orphan comments in the table after the parent article was deleted. This kind of errors can be avoided if foreign key constraints are introduced.

Indexes are also a must, since there are lots of SQL statements like these in the code:
Code: [Select]
SELECT ..... WHERE some_field = "some_variable"
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: invarbrass on April 06, 2008, 06:11:43 PM
(-) thumbs.dll file in sNews package. Bravo!

must you be an PITA and pick on every little mistake? someone clearly overlooked the cache file while archiving the entire site. it's just a harmless file.

btw, it's thumbs.db, not thumbs.dll. Is it your eye-sight or is it just a spelling mistake which converted a .db file into a DLL library?  ;)
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Sasha on April 07, 2008, 04:02:51 AM
There are 15,189 people in the U.S. with the first name Sasha.

Statistically the 1495th most popular first name.

More than 99.9 percent of people with the first name Sasha are female.

Names similar to Sasha:  Alexandria    8)
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: jackp on April 07, 2008, 04:37:11 AM
Wow! That is interesting Sasha!. Maybe we should rename some functions in sNews by peoples names that have helped.

Did you notice that there were 22,100,000 'Sasha' entries in Google. There is even one 'Sasha Alexander'

We could rename things like function categories() to function bakercad() or function_db to function codetwist() etc etc

I reserve the right, if this is unamimously approved, to have function populate() named after me. ;D LOL

If we did this then, then there would be something to get personal about.

Hey fellas anyone single? I just thought of a really corny pickup line someone can try. (nothing personal here!) i.e Hi my name is 'JackpRC'. Fancy trying me out?
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Joost on April 07, 2008, 04:58:37 AM
Wow! That is interesting Sasha!. Maybe we should rename some functions in sNews by peoples names that have helped.

Did you notice that there were 22,100,000 'Sasha' entries in Google. There is even one 'Sasha Alexander'

We could rename things like function categories() to function bakercad() or function_db to function codetwist() etc etc

I reserve the right, if this is unamimously approved, to have function populate() named after me. ;D LOL

If we did this then, then there would be something to get personal about.

Hey fellas anyone single? I just thought of a really corny pickup line someone can try. (nothing personal here!) i.e Hi my name is 'JackpRC'. Fancy trying me out?

Anyone interested in function strip() ?
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Ken Dahlin on April 07, 2008, 06:20:58 AM
Hey fellas anyone single? I just thought of a really corny pickup line someone can try. (nothing personal here!) i.e Hi my name is 'JackpRC'. Fancy trying me out?

If the girl you use that line on understands it, marry her. :)
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: lilspen on April 07, 2008, 06:51:35 AM
Quote
(-) "Stock" template is GOD-AWFUL ! Have you even looked at it it after finishing it? It's horrible! And for CSS-styles. Are you kidding me??? IE-specific styles? In such a simple template??? Template for sNews HAS to be as simple as possible! Forget additional CSS styles! This is not funny! Bring back old template before you infuriate the GOD himself. sNews template is just for presentation and this... This is a-w-f-u-l.
I agree.
But instead of ranting about it, give suggestions to improve on it.
Is it the colours that you don't like or the layout?

Quote
(-) thumbs.dll file in sNews package. Bravo!
As said before, it was overlooked. It wouldn't be included in the final release of course.

Quote
(-) What the hell have you done to the "readme.html" file??? Who did this? Those colors, those margins! Is it now written for aliens or for people witout taste? Repulsive spectacle... And the purple line at the top of the file? So sweet...
It's a read me file. you will read it once, maybe even twice and then you will likely never see it again.
Why do you care so much about THAT?
Of course, if it is such a big problem i'm sure they will change the CSS in the next release.

Quote
(-) This:
(http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/1803/sucksog2.png)
is awful. Can't you see it? I'm not only talking about margins here. Split them with "|"...
Obviously it was designed under win/linux because it looks fine on them.
It seems Mac users weren't taken under consideration when designing it.
Now that you have drawn attention to it, it will probably be fixed for mac users in the next RC. :D

Quote
(-) And moooooore...
What else is there?
How about some more constructive suggestions about it next time. :P



Now I feel included. :D
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Sasha on April 07, 2008, 07:11:12 AM
Hello, everybody!!! Can i start fucking up some things around here  or all is already fucked up ;D  ......PEACE and use your energy to fix bugs no to post stupid things.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: jlhaslip on April 07, 2008, 09:15:50 AM
can a Mod changer the title of this Rant, please.

Looked at the Adress Bar of my machine and it says right there that this is snews...

Code: [Select]
http://localhost/sNews17RC/index.php
Seriously, I think you are being a little harsh here. Release Candidates are what they are.
1 file, 3 files, whatever it takes to improve the software is fine with me.

I'll be going on a seek and destroy mission to hunt a few Bugs and be back.

later...
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Keyrocks on April 07, 2008, 02:55:12 PM
can a Mod changer the title of this Rant, please.
Looked at the Adress Bar of my machine and it says right there that this is snews... http://localhost/sNews17RC/index.php

Your suggestion is a good one.
Armen has been asked politely (on more than one occasion) to edit his original post and has chosen not to respond. He did say he was leaving sNews forever... so the topic title is (most likely) of no interest to him at this point.
I've changed the title.  ;)
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Keyrocks on April 07, 2008, 03:05:27 PM
Hello, everybody!!! Can i start fucking up some things around here  or all is already fucked up ;D

No... you can't Sasha... but thanks for being so considerate and asking first.  ;D
I think the "Revised Title" on this topic says it all... a place to discuss the pros & cons of the 1.7RC changes.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: TheTick on April 07, 2008, 03:33:03 PM

FYI....this looks like it's being changed & it was noticed within hours of the release.  Instead of form "buttons" they'll be anchors with CSS styling.


That's good. Muuuuch better....
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Patric Ahlqvist on April 07, 2008, 03:35:27 PM
I think I'm with Bob here... Even though I have strong feelings (calmed down now ;)) about the way Armen expressed himself, I don't think we should cencor his or any other posts unless it contains SPAM, and crap. However not well put Armens choice of title was, it was his choice, and by editing it, we might be concidered, not a democracy, but something else... I vote to change it back.

If nothing else so just to not offer more "wood for the fire", so to speak ;)
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: mosh on April 07, 2008, 03:41:43 PM
i salute all sNews members for the very restrained responses.
that just show what good people are made of.

for the latest Upgrade sNews17RC:
Fantastic work.

the added files are just natural, i use em all the time hehe,
as i recall Armen was the one that posted about
how snews use less memory while not logged in as admin,
if we move admin functions to admin.php  :P

any way, good direction for sNews

thank you dudes
 8)
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Patric Ahlqvist on April 07, 2008, 03:49:04 PM
Thank you, Mosh... I bet the dev team are glad to hear your comments. Much appriciated, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: funlw65 on April 07, 2008, 04:05:18 PM
What about mosh idea? Why not separate administration in admin.php? I know sNews will be 2 files...admin.php can have his own template... suitable for a wysiwyg editor....like wordpress.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: mosh on April 07, 2008, 04:30:08 PM
Armen Idea :)

i did try it,
and it works great, almost half memory use while not loggedin :)

 ;D
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: funlw65 on April 07, 2008, 05:34:20 PM
Your 4-um addon need admin part to be in the same snwes.php? Interesting link to forum: http://4inchorange.com/?action=forum
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Dom on April 07, 2008, 05:44:10 PM
Don't yell at me if this has already been discussed somewhere else... I'm guilty of not watching the forum discussions closely for some time...

Few days ago I came up to an open discussion of one OpenSource application - FreeMind. The discussion, titled "FreeMind Future Direction" started with a clear mission statement of one man, who if I'm not mistaken is to become a future leader of the project.

They also have a vision of the original creator, who long left the project and appointed somebody else as a project leader. What I think is important is that they have identified "5 pillars of FreeMind" to which they will stick and basically any change in the application will be tested if it follows these same 5 pillars. If not, I guess it won't be considered for the next release.

Maybe sNews project leaders should come up with a clear mission statement, available to everybody, so that "sNews Dudes" are always on the right track...

I suppose to someone this could seem like something irrelevant but it is really a cornerstone of everything. Without that you're lost and as you turn around you're no longer yourself - you became somebody else.

We all know what the vision of sNews is, right? Or do we really know what are the most important things?
I thought it was one-file CMS, but people suggest it would be better splitting it up. And while I cannot argue the benefits of splitting it up, would it really be that much of an improvement so that we loose the true identity? What will then sNews be known for? (sure, sNews is known for other things as well, but I'm just trying to make a point here)
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: funlw65 on April 07, 2008, 06:03:18 PM
If sNews is better in one file, then let it be that way.

I think sNews is known better for theme independency (the most important factor and the main glue for this comunity of programmers, web designers, writers and artists). And very good ONLY for small projects. And sNews Dudes changing things for a better sNews...
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Keyrocks on April 07, 2008, 06:14:15 PM
Quote from: BAKERCAD
I'm not sure it was a good idea to change the title as it was the original author's intent.  Don't want this forum turn into a place where users are "censored" when expressing themselves.

Quote from: PATRIC
I think I'm with Bob here... Even though I have strong feelings (calmed down now ) about the way Armen expressed himself, I don't think we should cencor his or any other posts unless it contains SPAM, and crap. However not well put Armens choice of title was, it was his choice, and by editing it, we might be concidered, not a democracy, but something else... I vote to change it back.

I can appreciate your concern over potential for unnecessary censorship. The change was not intended as such and was not made without giving it some thought and consideration beforehand. The change was made for a legitimate reason. Administrators do have the perogative of making a decision on their own when they believe it is necessary.

In this case... the title was significantly inaccurate... relating to sNews 1.7 and not the fact that it is - at this time - only an RC distro that is subject to change. Further, the title was unfairly critical - slanderous to be more accurate - of the sNews project in a way that adversely affects the project's overall reputation. It is not an abomination. A statement such as this is no different that a slanderous one made in hard-print (like in a newspaper). Once it's printed... it's on the record... as indexed links are on the web... where it can be taken out of context by anyone who may choose to (for whatever reason) damage the reputation of the sNews project.

We are (by and large) all grown-ups here on these Forums. I expect all members to be as considerate and respectful to others as I am. I expect them to be grown up enough to apologise when they 'go over the top' and make reasonable changes and/or apologies when their slip-up has been noted.

Again, Armen has been invited to edit his post which provides him with the opportunity to retract his slanderous statement. Up till now, he has chosen to remain silent and has taken no such action.

I trust this clarifies the reasoning behind the decision.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: codetwist on April 07, 2008, 06:22:43 PM
@Dom: This was discussed here already. Some of dudes clearly expressed that they don't need kind of a roadmap/priorities/whatever because RCs will do instead. Absolute classic :(
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Armen on April 07, 2008, 06:33:01 PM
@Dom: This was discussed here already. Some of dudes clearly expressed that they don't need kind of a roadmap/priorities/whatever because RCs will do instead. Absolute classic :(


Absolutely precise, codie. That's what bothers me the most. No centralized authority. No quality-control. "Dudes" decide, "dudes" choose, "dudes" this or that. Instead of global poll for every change and elementary constancy in sNews roadmapping. If there's any, that is...

Who told you I'd like extras sections support in the core? I don't.
And it's going to take some time to figure out how to get rid of them.
MOD it was, MOD it should stay. I don't want another table. See? Wow! Another opinion. The opposite one, that is!

And for those, who say this is just an RC: do you really think all those mods were added by "dudes", so "dudes" would get rid of them in the future? They've already decided on that. Mods stay. Got it? Fine, fine, we did.

But since some of the "dudes" may not know the meaning of the "RC" term, I'll help:
RC means "Release Candidate". It's not a BETA. It's an RC. That means it wouldn't change much.

If you want community to decide, which mods to include in the core, release BETA, not RC, like a bunch of people decide for the whole community.

RC is for bughunting. Not code-revision. BETA's for such things.

So my reaction was perfectly normal: "They are calling THIS an RC???"

Noooo, thank you. I'll pass. I'll stick with 1.6.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Keyrocks on April 07, 2008, 06:39:28 PM
Quote from: DOM
Maybe sNews project leaders should come up with a clear mission statement, available to everybody, so that "sNews Dudes" are always on the right track...
I suppose to someone this could seem like something irrelevant but it is really a cornerstone of everything. Without that you're lost and as you turn around you're no longer yourself - you became somebody else.

Quote from: funlw65
If sNews is better in one file, then let it be that way.
I think sNews is known better for theme independency (the most important factor and the main glue for this comunity of programmers, web designers, writers and artists). And very good ONLY for small projects. And sNews Dudes changing things for a better sNews...

@ Dom... your suggestion is a very good one and I (as one Dude) agree with it 100%.
From the time I first logged in to solucija (April 2006) when 1.4 was the latest version... up to the release of 1.6... there was no need to have a formal Mission Statement and a list of guiding development principles. The project was driven by its Author (Luka) with one additional code writer - Mika. Both Luka and Mika appeared to work as if they were one person and of "one mind".

As we go through adult life... we are all faced with new circumstances that require us to change what we focus on as individuals. In Mika's case... he found it necessary to leave the sNews project to focus on other pressing matters of greater importance in his life. Luka has also been doing the same for several months. Luka decided to leave the development of 1.7 up to a larger "ad-hoc" team of "Dudes" because he knew he didn't have the time to lead it himself.

As you can imagine... this has not been and easy process for us (the Dudes) this first time around. We are a "loose confederacy" of volunteers from all around the globe. We have never met face-to-face, and we all have differing visions of what we think sNews could or should be... and our work (this time around) has been largely accomplished without a formal Vision Statement and set of Guiding Principles. We do, however, realize that developing this is an important priority and will definitely work on this in the very near future.

@ funlw65... I tend to agree with your point that sNews is known (and appreciated) more for its template independency. It is one of the main reasons I enjoy working with it and using it for actual sites. I believe the actual folder and file structure is less important... it is nothing more than a way adding a higher degree of organization between the core engine functions and their supporting (secondary) scripts. Indeed... template independency is the first and most imporant principles for future development.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Keyrocks on April 07, 2008, 06:58:50 PM
Quote from: CODIE
@Dom: This was discussed here already. Some of dudes clearly expressed that they don't need kind of a roadmap/priorities/whatever because RCs will do instead. Absolute classic :(

I can appreciate your point Codetwist... and as I pointed out in my response to DOM (above)... it isn't a matter of "not needing" a roadmap or priority list all. You should understand that "We Dudes" jumped into this "responsibility" out of our own desire to volunteer and help out... nothing more. There is not one "iota" of compensation for any of us when the deed is done. Can we learn from our experiences?  Yes, we can. Are the Dudes willing to learn from this experience? Knowing the other "Dudes" as I do... I know we are. Did we have a list of "Priorities" at the outset? Yes, we did (as clearly explained in my first post in this topic string). Did we consult openly on the short-list with all Forum members? No... we did not. And perhaps that was an error in judgement. Perhaps it would have been useful to conduct a poll before actually starting the project.

Quote from: ARMEN
Absolutely precise, codie. That's what bothers me the most. No centralized authority. No quality-control. "Dudes" decide, "dudes" choose, "dudes" this or that. Instead of global poll for every change and elementary constancy in sNews roadmapping. If there's any, that is...

Who told you I'd like extras sections support in the core? I don't.
And it's going to take some time to figure out how to get rid of them.
MOD it was, MOD it should stay. I don't want another table. See? "Dudes" aren't the center of the world.

@ Armen... good to have you back in the discussion. Your points are also well taken. We "Dudes" know you do care about the future direction of sNews and that's why we appreciate your comments in the first place. We could get into long-winded discussions about the merits of "Centralized Authority" vs "Decision-making by Consensus" (which are diametrically opposed in premise) and... if so... (in keeping with good organizational principles) it should be done in a NEW topic under GENERAL DISCUSSION.  :)

Be assured... the Dudes are reading and learning from this whole 1.7RC experience. Please respect that. Let's end the bickering and get on  with working together for the better good of the sNews Project.  :)

P.S. (This has been one of the liveliest and fruit-bearing discussions we've had in some time. Great.)
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Armen on April 07, 2008, 07:03:33 PM
Quote from: Key
Did we consult openly on the short-list with all Forum members? No... we did not. And perhaps that was an error in judgement. Perhaps it would have been useful to conduct a poll before actually starting the project.

Thank GOD...

Sure it would have been! So why not try it again?

And release "sNews 1.7" and not this "RC" or whatever it is, huh?

That's the point.

If there's none of the founding fathers to decide, let community exchange ideas and vote.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: centered on April 07, 2008, 07:06:37 PM
@Dom: This was discussed here already. Some of dudes clearly expressed that they don't need kind of a roadmap/priorities/whatever because RCs will do instead. Absolute classic :(

Absolutely precise, codie. That's what bothers me the most. No centralized authority. No quality-control. "Dudes" decide, "dudes" choose, "dudes" this or that. Instead of global poll for every change and elementary constancy in sNews roadmapping. If there's any, that is...

Who told you I'd like extras sections support in the core? I don't.
And it's going to take some time to figure out how to get rid of them.
MOD it was, MOD it should stay. I don't want another table. See? Wow! Another opinion. The opposite one, that is!

I do agree a roadmap would be helpful as well, I have made that statement before as well. You also need to look at what is "core worthy" and mod worthy as well.  It made sense to put a multiple extra addition in the core since the popularity of Keyrock's 2 add'tl extras mod.  The statement about removing extras is asinine since some don't use comments but I am not ready to take out the comment's code (a good portion of the engine).

Let me ask you, the users, What do you see as a potential roadmap?  And really think about what sNews is before you mention OpenID, WYSIWYG editors, etc...
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Armen on April 07, 2008, 07:10:05 PM
Let me ask you, the users, What do you see as a potential roadmap?  And really think about what sNews is before you mention OpenID, WYSIWYG editors, etc...

(I think roadmap and ideas need their personal thread)
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Keyrocks on April 07, 2008, 07:11:25 PM
Quote from: Key
Did we consult openly on the short-list with all Forum members? No... we did not. And perhaps that was an error in judgement. Perhaps it would have been useful to conduct a poll before actually starting the project.

Thank GOD...
Sure it would have been! So why not try it again?
And release "sNews 1.7" and not this "RC" or whatever it is, huh?
That's the point.

@ Armen... honestly and up front... I don't know what it is about you that seems to rub me the wrong way. Perhaps it's has more to do with our different backgrounds than anything else.
... There is no need to use a "condescending" tone in your posts. We did get your point. I and none of the other "Dudes" are on your "payroll"... OK?
While we focus on improving the Development Process... perhaps you might concentrate on demonstrating a greater degree of "sincerety" in your communications with others... it does go a long way towards building better working relationships.  :)


Quote from: ARMEN
Let me ask you, the users, What do you see as a potential roadmap?  And really think about what sNews is before you mention OpenID, WYSIWYG editors, etc...

(I think roadmap and ideas need their personal thread)

Agreed. Feel free to start a new Topic EQ.  ;D
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: codetwist on April 07, 2008, 07:14:12 PM
@Dom: This was discussed here already. Some of dudes clearly expressed that they don't need kind of a roadmap/priorities/whatever because RCs will do instead. Absolute classic :(


Absolutely precise, codie. That's what bothers me the most. No centralized authority. No quality-control. "Dudes" decide, "dudes" choose, "dudes" this or that. Instead of global poll for every change and elementary constancy in sNews roadmapping. If there's any, that is...

Who told you I'd like extras sections support in the core? I don't.
And it's going to take some time to figure out how to get rid of them.
MOD it was, MOD it should stay. I don't want another table. See? Wow! Another opinion. The opposite one, that is!

And for those, who say this is just an RC: do you really think all those mods were added by "dudes", so "dudes" would get rid of them in the future? They've already decided on that. Mods stay. Got it? Fine, fine, we did.

But since some of the "dudes" may not know the meaning of the "RC" term, I'll help:
RC means "Release Candidate". It's not a BETA. It's an RC. That means it wouldn't change much.

If you want community to decide, which mods to include in the core, release BETA, not RC, like a bunch of people decide for the whole community.

RC is for bughunting. Not code-revision. BETA's for such things.

So my reaction was perfectly normal: "They are calling THIS an RC???"

Noooo, thank you. I'll pass. I'll stick with 1.6.

@Armen: Mhm ... well, I'd say that it's ok for Dudes to decide and all. Including to decide on ways how to gather input. So, they want to gather input post factum with RCs - IMO it's their rights absolutely even if it implies ignoring users.
Is any particular sNews user ok with such approach and what to do about it - that's different story for any particular user. If one can code then IMHO there is no use to create fuss in relation to item with so small codebase anyway. But that's me.
 
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Armen on April 07, 2008, 07:18:28 PM
... There is no need to use a "condescending" tone in your posts. We did get your point. I and none of the other "Dudes" are on your "payroll"... OK?
While we focus on improving the Development Process... perhaps you might concentrate on demonstrating a greater degree of "sincerety" in your communications with others... it does go a long way towards building better working relationships.  :)

There is need, Key. That's the only way to "shake the tower with Mao on top", if you catch my drift.

I'm a very polite person, Key, but when somebody thinks he's better than others for no reason and makes big decisions without warning, I stand on my point of view, and speak for myself. Others are welcome to do the same.

Quote
it does go a long way towards building better working relationships

I thought good working relationships were stable and would hold for some "domestic disturbance".

Quote
@Armen: Mhm ... well, I'd say that it's ok for Dudes to decide and all. Including to decide on ways how to gather input. So, they want to gather input post factum with RCs - IMO it's their rights absolutely even if it implies ignoring users.
Is any particular sNews user ok with such approach and what to do about it - that's different story for any particular user. If one can code then IMHO there is no use to create fuss in relation to item with so small codebase anyway. But that's me.

I love sNews, and I can code: all of sNews installations I deployed were 30% non-snews inside. New functions, new abilities, removed unneeded abilities. But there's a limit. Hard to tell, codie.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Joost on April 07, 2008, 07:23:15 PM
@Armen

The extra content is not in table extras. This table only contains the name of the position (footer, header). With little change, it can do without table extras.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Armen on April 07, 2008, 07:25:05 PM
Quote
Who thinks they're better than others?  What are these big decisions that have been made?

1.7 itself inside is a one big decision.

@Armen

The extra content is not in table extras. This table only contains the name of the position (footer, header). With little change, it can do without table extras.

Idea is for the user to be able to easily migrate from 1.6/1.5 to 1.7 and maybe back if smth's wrong. And I don't see 1.7 to be ready for this with all the changes.

I guess 2.xx branch could bring some drastic changes, but not the 1.xx branch. Compability is the key.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Armen on April 07, 2008, 07:26:57 PM
Quote
Who thinks they're better than others?  What are these big decisions that have been made?

1.7 itself inside is a one big decision.
1.7 was inevitable & has been in discussion since the release of 1.6, it was no "fly by night" decision.

You didn't get me right. THIS piece of code is to be called "sNews 1.7". Thats what I meant.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: codetwist on April 07, 2008, 07:30:51 PM
... There is no need to use a "condescending" tone in your posts. We did get your point. I and none of the other "Dudes" are on your "payroll"... OK?
While we focus on improving the Development Process... perhaps you might concentrate on demonstrating a greater degree of "sincerety" in your communications with others... it does go a long way towards building better working relationships.  :)

There is need, Key. That's the only way to "shake the tower with Mao on top", if you catch my drift.

I'm a very polite person, Key, but when somebody thinks he's better than others for no reason and makes big decisions without warning, I stand on my point of view, and speak for myself. Others are welcome to do the same.

Quote
it does go a long way towards building better working relationships

I thought good working relationships were stable and would hold for some "domestic disturbance".

Quote
@Armen: Mhm ... well, I'd say that it's ok for Dudes to decide and all. Including to decide on ways how to gather input. So, they want to gather input post factum with RCs - IMO it's their rights absolutely even if it implies ignoring users.
Is any particular sNews user ok with such approach and what to do about it - that's different story for any particular user. If one can code then IMHO there is no use to create fuss in relation to item with so small codebase anyway. But that's me.

I love sNews, and I can code: all of sNews installations I deployed were 30% non-snews inside. New functions, new abilities, removed unneeded abilities. But there's a limit. Hard to tell, codie.
@Armen: Yeah there is limit ... just to clarify my point - while I've published some mods for v.1.6 I'm still sticking with modified v.1.5. There was no incentive feature-wise nor code-wise for me to migrate on 1.6. And after looking into 1.7 code I can say the same; only this time I'll not bother with mods at all.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Joost on April 07, 2008, 07:34:42 PM

@Armen

The extra content is not in table extras. This table only contains the name of the position (footer, header). With little change, it can do without table extras.

Idea is for the user to be able to easily migrate from 1.6/1.5 to 1.7 and maybe back if smth's wrong. And I don't see 1.7 to be ready for this with all the changes.

I guess 2.xx branch could bring some drastic changes, but not the 1.xx branch. Compability is the key.

Upgrade needs one extra tables and altering tabel articles. Downgrading (a rollback to 1.6) is no problem.We made sure of that.


Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Keyrocks on April 07, 2008, 07:42:40 PM
Quote from: CODIE
@Armen: Yeah there is limit ... just to clarify my point - while I've published some mods for v.1.6 I'm still sticking with modified v.1.5. There was no incentive feature-wise nor code-wise for me to migrate on 1.6. And after looking into 1.7 code I can say the same; only this time I'll not bother with mods at all.

@ Codetwist... at this time I don't see myself creating mods for 1.7 either but I'm not one to say "never" because the future is always an unknown.  ;D
Modding for 1.6 isn't much different (for me) than modding for 1.5.31 mainly because there wasn't a huge difference between the two versions. We all come to the point where what we have works for us OK and there isn't really a need to start over without purpose. My 1.6 projects are doing me fine for now and I would rather focus on making good use of them.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: centered on April 08, 2008, 12:25:27 AM
Here is the user suggestion box for a roadmap:
http://snewscms.com/forum/index.php?topic=7221.msg50880

and if you want me to start...

Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Dom on April 08, 2008, 12:55:51 AM
I have nothing against a roadmap, but I honestly couldn't come up with suggestions for features of future releases. I'll say once more what I believe is more important and has to live on the paper (or in the electrons in our case) before the roadmap: the vision, the mission, the purpose of sNews.

For example, you say:
Please think about what sNews is before anything too extravagant like OpenID inclusion for instance. sNews is simple to use and maintains to be a core engine.

But that's really what we need to be clear about before coming up with the roadmap. What sNews is and should stay in future? One-file CMS? lightweight? as simple as possible even for beginners in PHP? Without the latest "end user features" (like OpenID) in the core (maybe only if something becomes standard, it can be considered for the core, given that it doesn't go against the other "pillars")? These are the things we should agree on first (or current project leaders need to come up with).

P.S. Now that I proof-read my post, I realized I didn't mention template independent, which is important aspect of sNews and one of the things sNews should remain in future. @All: Can you see why having such a more-or-less definite list would ease the decision making regarding the inclusion of ?? in core for the future releases?
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Ken Dahlin on April 08, 2008, 01:54:13 AM
But that's really what we need to be clear about before coming up with the roadmap. What sNews is and should stay in future? One-file CMS? lightweight? as simple as possible even for beginners in PHP? Without the latest "end user features" (like OpenID) in the core (maybe only if something becomes standard, it can be considered for the core, given that it doesn't go against the other "pillars")? These are the things we should agree on first (or current project leaders need to come up with).

Even though a "one-file cms" sounds impressively simple, it's a promise that's going to eventually collapse under it's own weight. It's probably time to lose  that term that in favor of better code organization and memory management. What you could shoot for is a fully functional, fast, CMS with impressively low memory requirements... and you could even spell those specifications out in the vision for the future of sNews. People aren't normally fond of limitations, but I think to intentionally limit the size of the project not only forces the most necessary of features to be added, but encourages more efficient coding. In my mind, sNews should strive to be the fastest, functional CMS that runs on over 99% of all hosting services that support PHP. Eventually I'd like to see a comparison of how lightweight sNews (memory usage, database tables, file size) is compared to popular options like Wordpress in a side-by-side chart. Something like that should probably be on the main page of snewscms.com. Even now it should be amazing how little other projects have gained in terms of usable features over sNews.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: jared351 on April 08, 2008, 02:58:23 AM
Quote
Even though a "one-file cms" sounds impressively simple, it's a promise that's going to eventually collapse under it's own weight.

I couldn't agree with that more. We could still keep it lightweight but not necessarily confine ourselves to it being a "One file CMS", and like you said why can't we just shoot for having one of the fastest CMS's out there with the minimum memory requirement?
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: centered on April 08, 2008, 04:09:06 AM
@Armen

The extra content is not in table extras. This table only contains the name of the position (footer, header). With little change, it can do without table extras.

Where would you put the extra groups?
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: centered on April 08, 2008, 04:17:30 AM
But that's really what we need to be clear about before coming up with the roadmap. What sNews is and should stay in future? One-file CMS? lightweight? as simple as possible even for beginners in PHP? Without the latest "end user features"

Actually you defined sNews pretty well

Even though a "one-file cms" sounds impressively simple, it's a promise that's going to eventually collapse under it's own weight.
How so?  If you keep a core clean and fast, then how would a script "collapse under it's own weight"? 

It's probably time to lose that term that in favor of better code organization
OOP?

In my mind, sNews should strive to be the fastest, functional CMS that runs on over 99% of all hosting services that support PHP.
Doesn't it already?


Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: centered on April 08, 2008, 04:22:59 AM
@Dom: This was discussed here already. Some of dudes clearly expressed that they don't need kind of a roadmap/priorities/whatever because RCs will do instead. Absolute classic :(


Absolutely precise, codie. That's what bothers me the most. No centralized authority. No quality-control. "Dudes" decide, "dudes" choose, "dudes" this or that. Instead of global poll for every change and elementary constancy in sNews roadmapping. If there's any, that is...

Who told you I'd like extras sections support in the core? I don't.
And it's going to take some time to figure out how to get rid of them.
MOD it was, MOD it should stay. I don't want another table. See? Wow! Another opinion. The opposite one, that is!

And for those, who say this is just an RC: do you really think all those mods were added by "dudes", so "dudes" would get rid of them in the future? They've already decided on that. Mods stay. Got it? Fine, fine, we did.

But since some of the "dudes" may not know the meaning of the "RC" term, I'll help:
RC means "Release Candidate". It's not a BETA. It's an RC. That means it wouldn't change much.

If you want community to decide, which mods to include in the core, release BETA, not RC, like a bunch of people decide for the whole community.

RC is for bughunting. Not code-revision. BETA's for such things.

So my reaction was perfectly normal: "They are calling THIS an RC???"

Noooo, thank you. I'll pass. I'll stick with 1.6.

@Armen: Mhm ... well, I'd say that it's ok for Dudes to decide and all. Including to decide on ways how to gather input. So, they want to gather input post factum with RCs - IMO it's their rights absolutely even if it implies ignoring users.
Is any particular sNews user ok with such approach and what to do about it - that's different story for any particular user. If one can code then IMHO there is no use to create fuss in relation to item with so small codebase anyway. But that's me.
 

There is a suggestion forum.  In this forum I do not see a thread from you codetwist, nor you armen.  You wanted to request some features.... well I posted a thread... I'm waiting myself. 
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Joost on April 08, 2008, 04:27:02 AM
@Armen

The extra content is not in table extras. This table only contains the name of the position (footer, header). With little change, it can do without table extras.

Where would you put the extra groups?

Personally, I don't mind it being in a table. But if needs to be dropped: An array hardcoded in snews.php.

Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Ken Dahlin on April 08, 2008, 04:48:13 AM
How so?  If you keep a core clean and fast, then how would a script "collapse under it's own weight"? 

Let's say if an installer is added to that clean and fast core, or improvements to administration functions which become increasingly more complex. Obviously the memory requirements are still going to be very low, but the purpose (as I see it) of sNews will collapse trying to maintain that single file. That's why I say ditch it.

Quote
OOP?

No.

Quote
In my mind, sNews should strive to be the fastest, functional CMS that runs on over 99% of all hosting services that support PHP.
---
Doesn't it already?

Yes, maybe I should have said "continue to strive". I was just advocating that we don't have to cling to the vision of "a single file cms" because that in itself doesn't mean anything performance wise.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: TheTick on April 08, 2008, 04:48:26 AM
To put in my own 2cents here I'd have to say that sNews should strive to be as simple as possible and retain it's template independence. I really don't care about OpenID, social bookmarking, ajax or editors, etc. I favor a limited system rather than one weighted down with unneccessary junk. I think that improvements should be made that makes sNews more efficient operationally and provide increasing control of display of content - increased extra options, increased control and choices over display of content layout, better integration of keywords, categories and so on. Things that let the designer/developer really create a site as custom as possible by manipulating data as much as can be done with a simple one file system...Anything else should be mods, which leads me to believe some sort of plugin system might be the best. Keep the core simple but have an organized method to expand the functionality without having to "get under the hood" all the time, so to speak. And within the "plugin" concept you can add all your openids, editors, ajax functionality, contact for mods, newsletter mods and so on...
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: codetwist on April 08, 2008, 08:25:33 AM
@Dom: This was discussed here already. Some of dudes clearly expressed that they don't need kind of a roadmap/priorities/whatever because RCs will do instead. Absolute classic :(
@Dom & codetwist:  I don't think that anyone has actually ever stated that we don't need/want one or that RC's will do.  IMO, this has not taken place because of other factors.  Here's my take on it...take it as you wish:

As you & others may have already noticed, Luka, the founder of sNews, has not been participating much since before the release of 1.6.  He has other things going on in this life, as do the rest of us.  Mika, the main developer behind the 1.5 & 1.6 hasn't been around at all since October.  He has other things going on in his life too.  The other Dudes involved in the development of sNews have their own lives, their own jobs, their own families...etc, etc.  No one is getting any type of payment, except maybe having their name associated with this fine project.

Anyone who has made suggestions beyond what sNews is, has been replied to with a common statement.....We want to keep sNews simple & small.  That's pretty much the priority.  As for the roadmap....we don't know where sNews will be led to next.  How I see the roadmap: The requests & suggestions from the members of this community dictate where sNews will go, so long as they stay within the "keep sNews simple & small" priority that I've suggested.
Over the time I have visited this board issue of roadmap and/or priorities was brought up repeatedly and promptly shrugged of by Dudes. Probably, it has more to do with attitudes like this:
Quote
As for a roadmap, this really hasn't been discussed.  And quite frankly I don't think that it needs to be.  The way sNews operates is really quite simple.

Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: codetwist on April 08, 2008, 08:34:16 AM
...
There is a suggestion forum.  In this forum I do not see a thread from you codetwist, nor you armen.  You wanted to request some features.... well I posted a thread... I'm waiting myself. 

Funny ... I haven't requested any features; do Your reading first, equilni. I only want to find out what is sNews roadmap/priorities ... from those who knows what users want and who decides what's on the plate - from Dudes.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: centered on April 08, 2008, 12:26:17 PM
To put in my own 2cents here I'd have to say that sNews should strive to be as simple as possible and retain it's template independence. I really don't care about OpenID, social bookmarking, ajax or editors, etc. I favor a limited system rather than one weighted down with unneccessary junk. I think that improvements should be made that makes sNews more efficient operationally and provide increasing control of display of content - increased extra options, increased control and choices over display of content layout, better integration of keywords, categories and so on. Things that let the designer/developer really create a site as custom as possible by manipulating data as much as can be done with a simple one file system...Anything else should be mods, which leads me to believe some sort of plugin system might be the best. Keep the core simple but have an organized method to expand the functionality without having to "get under the hood" all the time, so to speak. And within the "plugin" concept you can add all your openids, editors, ajax functionality, contact for mods, newsletter mods and so on...

Well said Tick, thanks
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: centered on April 08, 2008, 12:29:45 PM
Over the time I have visited this board issue of roadmap and/or priorities was brought up repeatedly and promptly shrugged of by Dudes. Probably, it has more to do with attitudes like this:
Quote
As for a roadmap, this really hasn't been discussed.  And quite frankly I don't think that it needs to be.  The way sNews operates is really quite simple.

I'm a dude and I am requesting a roadmap from all if it is that important.  And to be honest, as a checklist, I think it may be important moving forward....
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Dom on April 08, 2008, 12:54:44 PM
To put in my own 2cents here I'd have to say that sNews should strive to be as simple as possible and retain it's template independence. I really don't care about OpenID, social bookmarking, ajax or editors, etc. I favor a limited system rather than one weighted down with unneccessary junk. I think that improvements should be made that makes sNews more efficient operationally and provide increasing control of display of content - increased extra options, increased control and choices over display of content layout, better integration of keywords, categories and so on. Things that let the designer/developer really create a site as custom as possible by manipulating data as much as can be done with a simple one file system...Anything else should be mods, which leads me to believe some sort of plugin system might be the best. Keep the core simple but have an organized method to expand the functionality without having to "get under the hood" all the time, so to speak. And within the "plugin" concept you can add all your openids, editors, ajax functionality, contact for mods, newsletter mods and so on...

Well said Tick, thanks

Couldn't agree more too. But I'm honestly concerned about this plugin system, as I got the impression from some of the developers on this forum that it would be a great shift in the way sNews is built.

@equilni: As you also said I described sNews pretty well in one of my posts, I'm afraid the plugin system is a no-no if it would go against any of the strengths of the sNews as I described it. As I see it, it would go against it being as simple as possible even for beginners in PHP... maybe even against it being the lightweight system? But correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not a programmer.
One thing I forgot to mention about sNews is that it's pretty easy to modify (That's where all the mods come from - I'm not a programmer and I made a few myself!) and that IMO shouldn't change in the future as well. Now, would a plugin system greatly compromise this?
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: centered on April 08, 2008, 01:13:56 PM
I wouldn't be too concerned about a plugin system, this is not the thread for it, and I don't know if it will ever be done.  I can't code it... I wouldn't know where to start....

Not sure why a"plug in" system would be harmful to the core... IMO, it would be helpful and as said many times, keeping the core simple and fast. 

Now I do agree sNews is pretty easy to modify, but even before I started modding, I was still working with the base 1.5 and 1.6 packages and HATED (go back to my post history if you want), ABSOLUTELY HATED seeing mod packages... I gave up in fighting and started releasing them myself, but the mods effected so much in the core that it was unavoidable.

Wanna try mixing and matching those packages together? What if they don't want to work together? 

*** EDIT ***
I bolded part of the first sentence, because this "plug in idea" is my idea and my fight for something easier for users and devs. It probably may not be done at all.... any discussion should point to the thread in the suggestion forum
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: funlw65 on April 08, 2008, 04:35:29 PM
I can't code it... I wouldn't know where to start....


Start from Flatpress! Is a young project, and use the same plugin system as Wordpress...of course, adapted to his own functions...no compatibility beteewn plugins of Wordpress and Flatpress....
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: centered on April 08, 2008, 07:18:10 PM

CONS:

(-) Thank you invabrass. Thank you for introduction of GLOBAL-scope variables. Thank you SO much.
I'm not going to tell you why I'm SO happy, I'm just going to point you here: http://php.net/global
As one smart person said: "Hmm, globals are a pretty poor solution and are pretty much forbidden in object oriented programming."
Thank you once again.

(-) thumbs.dll file in sNews package. Bravo!
(-) What the hell have you done to the "readme.html" file??? Who did this? Those colors, those margins! Is it now written for aliens or for people witout taste? Repulsive spectacle... And the purple line at the top of the file? So sweet...
(-) Thank you for the new table: extras. Do extras need their own table? You're kidding, right? RIGHT??? Wasn't that invabrass' idea again?
(-) new site() function sucks balls. (BTW: before it, everything worked fine even without RewriteBase parameter in .htaccess.). It's redunant and useless. Generates wrong base-hrefs.
(-) Readme says: "ONE-file CMS" and after that: "sNews consists of one ‘engine’ file (snews.php), one language file (snews_EN.php), one XHTML file (index.php) for content presentation, one stylesheet (style.css) for content styling and one javascript file for functionality". Are you kidding? You think this is funny? You've splitted snews for NO REASON. js()  and l() worked just fine inside snews. Why touch them? And, btw, "admin.js" needs translation. Yeah. You even *ucked up here. Instead of using js() inside snews with language vars, or at least calling language-vars you use hardcoded sentences. Bravo!
(-) This:
(http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/1803/sucksog2.png)
is awful. Can't you see it? I'm not only talking about margins here. Split them with "|"...
(-) And moooooore...

2. Explain why globals are bad.
3. Your kidding, this is a RC. I didn't see a complaint about the DS_Store file or the .Mac folder...
5. The table is for extra groupings (http://snewscms.com/forum/index.php?topic=6742.0)
6. Do you have a link of something to reference that bug?
7. The Language file is meant to be downloadable and placed in the languages folder and changed in the settings. JS is only for the admin section, so it doesn't "really" need to be a part of the core (wonders if same argument would have been applied to 1.4 - js was everywhere and not needed).  Hardcoded sentences, in the core, where?
8. It's an RC... this can be fixed with CSS
9. What more?  Can you be constructive and list items you feel are bugs (alot are valid IMO) and improvements in the bugs forum.  I, at least, would like to hear your ideas and suggestions.

Armen,

I am still waiting for a response...
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Armen on April 09, 2008, 10:35:06 AM
Quote
Armen,
I am still waiting for a response...

EQ, partly quoting myself earlier from this topic: "Ask "dudes", they'll help. I'm not going to suggest new features for this RC, nor I'd like to be a volunteer bughunter or developer/modwriter for it."

I can tell you which mods would be nice to be included into BARE (for example) sNews 1.6.1: Article insertion, function call, admin mod with article sorting, pages as category indexes mod, get comments moderation finally working right, fixed badwords filter (had some issues with the old one, as I can remember), possibility to make cms convert newlines of the post to br's and p's by setting an option in any article. I've already built such version for myself and have been using it for quite long. But it would be nice if anyone could get it right from the offsite. All those listed addons are essential and are used by me from one project to another. No fancy mods, just the essentials. Other things I can code by myself or apply ready-to-go mods.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: centered on April 09, 2008, 12:48:36 PM
Good you answered question 9, could you answer #2 and #6 (6 is a bug),  please.

I will answer #2 for you.

Now some may argue that Globals are bad programming practices, but in some cases (like sNews) it may be needed.

Why Globals are bad.

This is Global in use (from PHP Variable Scope (http://nl2.php.net/variables.scope)
Code: [Select]
<?php
// Globals
$a 1;
$b 2;

function 
Sum() {
    global 
$a$b;
    
$b $a $b;


Sum();
echo 
$b;
?>

Boys and girls, does anyone see a problem here?

Let me take a step further
Code: [Select]
<?php
// Global
$a 5;

function 
abc() {
global $a;
$a 6;
$b $a 5;
return $b;
}

echo 
abc();
echo 
'<br />';

function 
xyz(){
global $a;
$z $a 6;
return $z;
}

echo 
xyz();
?>

Ok so is abc() = 10 or 11 and xyz() = 11 or 12?

abc() = 11
xyz() = 12

(are light bulbs on yet?)

PHP.net says (referencing the first code)
Quote
The above script will output "3". By declaring $a and $b global within the function, all references to either variable will refer to the global version. There is no limit to the number of global variables that can be manipulated by a function.

Referencing the second code here;
Since we redefined $a in function abc(), the variable $a has globally been changed from 5 to 6 (from the function down).

Which means, either the "dudes" should make the "globals" as constants or alert modders of potentially mucking up the core system.
OR
Pass the global variables to a function similar to how get_id was, and call the function from there. Like so (not the best example...):
Code: [Select]
<?php

$a 
5;

function 
gl($var) {
global $a;
$var $a;
return $var;
}

function 
abc() {
$a gl($a);
$a 6;
$b $a 5;
return $b;
}

echo 
abc();
echo 
'<br />';

function 
xyz(){
$a gl($a);
$z $a 6;
return $z;
}

echo 
xyz();
?>
xyz() before outputted 12 because we redefined the global $a in function abc().  Now since we are passing the global in a function and referencing the global in the functions that need it, the global doesn't change. xyz() = 11, as it may have been originally intended.

To sum it up:
Global variables are (potentially) bad because they are accessible from every function in every file. They can be shadowed by local variables and, in the worst case, modified by multiple different functions. This increases complexity, the potential for bugs, and reduces ease of code maintenance.

It doesn't mean you should never use them but you should try to avoid introducing and using them.

Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: codetwist on April 09, 2008, 01:28:45 PM
@ equilni : I have asked for roadmap/priorities where Dudes are taking sNews with 1.7 and further. I'm not interested in individual users/Dudes wishlists. In that user roadmap thread of Yours philmoz has provided great description of the same thing I'm looking for - keywords there being single roadmap that defines further development. You as in all Dudes need time to come up with that one roadmap? That's fine, but don't mistake it with individual users wishlists/poll results and all. Especially because roadmap&priorities includes not only wishlist of 'external' features over versions but priniciples of 'internal' structure/development as well.

As for 1.7RC - it introduces several radical changes in snews code structure, most of them providing no benefits that weren't or couldn't be easily achieved without such changes. That means major rework for modified site code if it depends on snews core; and I doubt that there are a lot if any sites that are being run by default package as is. Basically that nice story which Keyrocks's spun regarding cars ends right there - the holes and pins and all are now in the whole different place and of different shape, thank You very much. Such changes makes development based on sNews harder, not simpler nor easier.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Armen on April 09, 2008, 01:38:04 PM
@ equilni : I have asked for roadmap/priorities where Dudes are taking sNews with 1.7 and further. I'm not interested in individual users/Dudes wishlists. In that user roadmap thread of Yours philmoz has provided great description of the same thing I'm looking for - keywords there being single roadmap that defines further development. You as in all Dudes need time to come up with that one roadmap? That's fine, but don't mistake it with individual users wishlists/poll results and all. Especially because roadmap&priorities includes not only wishlist of 'external' features over versions but priniciples of 'internal' structure/development as well.

As for 1.7RC - it introduces several radical changes in snews code structure, most of them providing no benefits that weren't or couldn't be easily achieved without such changes. That means major rework for modified site code if it depends on snews core; and I doubt that there are a lot if any sites that are being run by default package as is. Basically that nice story which Keyrocks's spun regarding cars ends right there - the holes and pins and all are now in the whole different place and of different shape, thank You very much. Such changes makes development based on sNews harder, not simpler nor easier.


Belissimo, Codie!

And let's not forget that majority of mods, that worked for 1.5 also worked for 1.6 (with small changes).

Now with all those "section" modifications and other stuff in the code, you're left with no compability whatsoever. I understand sql optimizations - it's vital and great. But other stuff...

EQ's right. Constants seem a better solution, since one might want to use a var name, that's been already defined (don't ask, why) or for other reasons. More than that, bug hunting becomes a real pain in the axe. Jason's already shown how constants could be used in sNews and had been using them in his projects with success.

If you want to get rid of helper-functions, at least tell your lead programmer to look for the best (non-questionable) replacing solution.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: centered on April 09, 2008, 01:56:41 PM
@ equilni : I have asked for roadmap/priorities where Dudes are taking sNews with 1.7 and further. I'm not interested in individual users/Dudes wishlists. In that user roadmap thread of Yours philmoz has provided great description of the same thing I'm looking for - keywords there being single roadmap that defines further development. You as in all Dudes need time to come up with that one roadmap? That's fine, but don't mistake it with individual users wishlists/poll results and all. Especially because roadmap&priorities includes not only wishlist of 'external' features over versions but priniciples of 'internal' structure/development as well.

I as in a dude, would like a roadmap as well, for checks and balance purposes, if anything. Since there is none, I provided my own as I would like to see the system move.  And if anything I will push for that direction, if it wasn't already obvious. 

Now if you just want something to read over, that is fine, but I asked yours and Armen's opinion because I value your opinions and since there is no set roadmap, I am asking how do you think this roadmap should look like?

And as for code changes, you see I agree about some changes... I just wanted someone else to speak up (Armen!)
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Armen on April 09, 2008, 03:31:06 PM
And as for code changes, you see I agree about some changes... I just wanted someone else to speak up (Armen!)

BTW, I'm now buried in work, but i will release "sNews unlimited".
Can't find time right now to finish it. Nevertheless, I can create a test-website if you want to see it in action eventually.
It will be based on eq's subcat-1.6 with minor enchancements from 1.7 (only those, which are connected to speed improvement).
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Keyrocks on April 09, 2008, 04:58:12 PM
Quote from: CODIE
@ equilni : I have asked for roadmap/priorities where Dudes are taking sNews with 1.7 and further. I'm not interested in individual users/Dudes wishlists.

This is a key point. It's about having an orderly process based on pre-defined "principles" that stay in place to guide future development.
Part of our problem has been a lack of overall direction from one level of authority. Some discussion is currently taking place "off-forum" on how this void may be adequately filled... perhaps starting with "succession planning".  :)
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: piXelatedEmpire on April 10, 2008, 04:38:26 AM
But that's really what we need to be clear about before coming up with the roadmap. What sNews is and should stay in future? One-file CMS? lightweight? as simple as possible even for beginners in PHP? Without the latest "end user features" (like OpenID) in the core (maybe only if something becomes standard, it can be considered for the core, given that it doesn't go against the other "pillars")? These are the things we should agree on first (or current project leaders need to come up with).

Even though a "one-file cms" sounds impressively simple, it's a promise that's going to eventually collapse under it's own weight. It's probably time to lose  that term that in favor of better code organization and memory management. What you could shoot for is a fully functional, fast, CMS with impressively low memory requirements... and you could even spell those specifications out in the vision for the future of sNews. People aren't normally fond of limitations, but I think to intentionally limit the size of the project not only forces the most necessary of features to be added, but encourages more efficient coding. In my mind, sNews should strive to be the fastest, functional CMS that runs on over 99% of all hosting services that support PHP..
Most intelligent post in this thread.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: funlw65 on April 10, 2008, 09:38:27 AM
But that's really what we need to be clear about before coming up with the roadmap. What sNews is and should stay in future? One-file CMS? lightweight? as simple as possible even for beginners in PHP? Without the latest "end user features" (like OpenID) in the core (maybe only if something becomes standard, it can be considered for the core, given that it doesn't go against the other "pillars")? These are the things we should agree on first (or current project leaders need to come up with).

Even though a "one-file cms" sounds impressively simple, it's a promise that's going to eventually collapse under it's own weight. It's probably time to lose  that term that in favor of better code organization and memory management. What you could shoot for is a fully functional, fast, CMS with impressively low memory requirements... and you could even spell those specifications out in the vision for the future of sNews. People aren't normally fond of limitations, but I think to intentionally limit the size of the project not only forces the most necessary of features to be added, but encourages more efficient coding. In my mind, sNews should strive to be the fastest, functional CMS that runs on over 99% of all hosting services that support PHP..
Most intelligent post in this thread.

I don`t call it the most.... But I am entirely agreed. If 99%, then it must have SEF switcher....
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Keyrocks on April 13, 2008, 05:17:21 PM
For those who might think breaking snews engine functions into more files in folders other than the "root" location is some sort of taboo  or breaking the "original" vision of sNews... I would like to set the record straight - it isn't.  :)

I still have complete, default file-sets for versions 1.2, 1.3 and 1.4 on hand, and I had reason to look back into them today.

Version 1.2 had an "engine" folder with three files in it - config.php, functions.php and an index.php. All php functions were not consolidated into one snews.php file until version 1.3.
- config.php contained 93 variables (72 were language variables) defining values used throughout all of the functions in functions.php.
- functions.php contained several small functions, just 257 lines of script in total.

The index.php file has an interesting structure. It was NOT template independent. It contained the bulk of the code - 429 lines in total. It...
1)  Starts the PHP session and includes config.php,
2)  Checks password login attempts. If too many or wrong, it displays a "Login Failure" message.
3)  If login is OK, generates an HTML "Admin" template with the CSS included in its <head> and login panel in its <body>.
4)  Once login is successful, it generates another HTML Admin template with the following:
     a) A simple menu at the top with links to "Home" and "Logout".
     b) An "Admin" title, and links to Admin functions - articles, new article, images, and comments.
     c) Case-based sub-functions for New and Edit articles (content),
         processing, images, image uploading, comments, logout, and a default Admin view.

sNews 1.2 was (and still is) the "Lite Blog" version of sNews - only 38.KB. installed. :)
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: codetwist on April 13, 2008, 09:48:52 PM
One or more files isn't an issue, at least for me - I go for more files anyway, multilingual sites and heap of mods/external libs as well. What's causing problems for me - it's cases when items x,y,z from core suddenly ceases to be present or behaves completely different moving from one minor version to next one. Doesn't matter where they are stored in one version or another - if only they are usable in the same way at both versions.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Keyrocks on April 13, 2008, 10:20:40 PM
One or more files isn't an issue, at least for me - I go for more files anyway, multilingual sites and heap of mods/external libs as well. What's causing problems for me - it's cases when items x,y,z from core suddenly ceases to be present or behaves completely different moving from one minor version to next one. Doesn't matter where they are stored in one version or another - if only they are usable in the same way at both versions.

I hear ya Codie... I hear You loud and clear.
Your point(s) have been documented in another location where they (and others) will remain as a constant reminder of "what not to do".   ;D
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: lessismore on April 14, 2008, 07:23:14 AM
Thanks everyone for this fine piece of work.

Please don't take this as a flame - I respect sNews & the contributors immensely,  but I have one bone to pick with the RC candidate:

* The CSS file is ~600 lines long and is too complex.

I wish I had a perfect answer of what to do about it, but I don't - I'm a CSS idiot.

However, I hate those who give negative feedback with no ideas for solutions so I'll try:

* Since the one file hurdle has been broken - maybe the CSS could be broken into multiple files too:

Examples, reset.css, layout.css, admin.css, contact.css, styles.css.

In summary, the complexity of all the CSS jammed into one monster file freaks me out.

Thanks for the consideration.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Sasha on April 14, 2008, 09:03:34 AM
css files in snews is easy to use.you have to know css to use css.you cant work with css if you dont know what is for what?so start learning css  :)
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Sasha on April 14, 2008, 09:06:06 AM
can some one make this avatar biger...this shit is to small ....thanx
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Keyrocks on April 14, 2008, 02:15:33 PM
Thanks everyone for this fine piece of work. Please don't take this as a flame - I respect sNews & the contributors immensely,  but I have one bone to pick with the RC candidate:

* The CSS file is ~600 lines long and is too complex.
 - maybe the CSS could be broken into multiple files too:

Examples, reset.css, layout.css, admin.css, contact.css, styles.css.
Thanks for the consideration.

And thanks for offering your suggestion in a positive light. :)
As you've likely determined... by reading back through the posts in this thread... Fred K. volunteered to provide a different template for the 1.7RC package as the Dudes thought it would give the next version a different identity to help tell them apart. The one down-side with Fred's template is that it does require a lot of CSS to make it work. It is provided as a possible option for the eventual release of 1.7 stable but... everything about the RC is open to discussion and critique... and can be changed.

For the present... you still have the option of switching back to the default template used in sNews 1.6... or any other template you may wish to use. Swap the CSS stylesheet and index.php files. Just be sure that your replacement index.php file contains the same function-names as used in the default 1.7RC index.php file. I think the only one that's changed is the one for "extra".
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Fred K on April 14, 2008, 03:03:44 PM
Thanks everyone for this fine piece of work. Please don't take this as a flame - I respect sNews & the contributors immensely,  but I have one bone to pick with the RC candidate:

* The CSS file is ~600 lines long and is too complex.
 - maybe the CSS could be broken into multiple files too:

Examples, reset.css, layout.css, admin.css, contact.css, styles.css.
Thanks for the consideration.
... it does require a lot of CSS to make it work. It is provided as a possible option for the eventual release of 1.7 stable but... everything about the RC is open to discussion and critique... and can be changed.

The bulk of the css actually has to do with making the admin area and comments/contact areas look a little more appetizing than normal, not so much with "making it work". The reason I opted for a separate IE-specific stylesheet was so that the "standard" stylesheet can use tried and tested techniques for modern browsers while satisfying IE with the separate stylesheet. It also provides you with a natural place to put other IE-specific CSS "hacks" (most* standards compliant browsers don't need hacks.)

In the final moments before releasing the RC, the standard stylesheet did get a little too bloated due to some late additions, but then (Armen!) it's an RC, not cast in stone (yet). Plus, you know, you always have the option to use an entirely different theme or template for your sNews site. 1.7(RC) is no different than previous versions in that respect.

I would also like to echo Saha's opinion: you do need to know some CSS to make changes. But, how's that any different from having to know some PHP (and now even more than previously!) to make changes in the core PHP engine? CSS is code, same as PHP is code, they just do different things (and, some might argue, are different in complexity. Be that as it may.)

*) Opera being something of a special child in this regard, sometimes demanding extra treatment.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: lessismore on April 14, 2008, 07:23:53 PM
The bulk of the css actually has to do with making the admin area and comments/contact areas look a little more appetizing than normal, not so much with "making it work". The reason I opted for a separate IE-specific stylesheet was so that the "standard" stylesheet can use tried and tested techniques for modern browsers while satisfying IE with the separate stylesheet. It also provides you with a natural place to put other IE-specific CSS "hacks" (most* standards compliant browsers don't need hacks.)
I test in IE last and went to your separate IE sheet to change a few things and it worked - what might have taken a long time to find took minutes - thanks.

The admin/comments/contact area look good - my comment was more that if some of the "bulk" was separated out based upon usage (like the IE sheet) it could make working with the existing CSS and/or adding custom CSS to a more minimalist "style.css" template file easier. 
I would also like to echo Saha's opinion: you do need to know some CSS to make changes. But, how's that any different from having to know some PHP (and now even more than previously!) to make changes in the core PHP engine? CSS is code, same as PHP is code, they just do different things (and, some might argue, are different in complexity. Be that as it may.
Agreed.

All in all, I like what I see in the RC and think its great the Dudes let the non-dudes kick the tires.  I think the non-dudes should provide feedback - especially their first impressions (as everyone only gets one of those), but it should be civil. The whole purpose of a RC is to get testing & feedback.

More first impressions are the "extra extras" and the ability to call functions via articles built into the editor are great new features.  Also, the core seems fast and stable (I'm using php 5.2.1 and mysql 4.1.22 on CentOS 4.6) and the only things that have shown up in the error_log have been self-inflicted wounds.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: jlhaslip on April 14, 2008, 07:53:30 PM
Quote
self-inflicted wounds

collateral damage? :lol:
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Fred K on April 15, 2008, 01:33:25 AM
I test in IE last and went to your separate IE sheet to change a few things and it worked - what might have taken a long time to find took minutes - thanks.
No problem. Glad it helped.

The admin/comments/contact area look good - my comment was more that if some of the "bulk" was separated out based upon usage (like the IE sheet) it could make working with the existing CSS and/or adding custom CSS to a more minimalist "style.css" template file easier.
True. The stylesheets weren't really supposed to be so bulky and I take responsibility for that, even if I wasn't the only one involved. The attempt that was made with this template, to give end-users more choices in terms of easy styling (for instance, did you know that you can change the template width just by changing the name on one div in index.php?) might have been a little over the top... oh, well. The good news is that --at least if the rumblings are true-- you might not be troubled by this template in the release version.

bla bla bla ... CSS is code, same as PHP is code, they just do different things ... bla bla
Agreed.
Just so you know, less, I wasn't aiming at you in particular with that remark. It seems to be a general sentiment, that since CSS is less complex than -for example- PHP, it's easy to dismiss. (It's just style, right? How hard can it be?) So the remark was aimed at anyone. ;)

Thanks for your other remarks (on behalf of all who's tinkered with the RC), it's appreciated.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: lessismore on April 15, 2008, 03:01:13 AM
Did you know that you can change the template width just by changing the name on one div in index.php?
Absolutely, I'm using the public.php/admin.php separation idea and am using pageflexi for admin and using the page778 for public - awesome - keep up the good work.  It's also a great feature for quick testing.

The blokes with the idea to separate the admin style from the public style are on to something good - some of my CSS hacks customizations have hosed up the admin pages - having a consistent admin style could be very attractive to developers and those supporting customers websites.

It's an RC, I'm an engineer too - hey, if you want it perfect you have to wait - maybe forever.   I'm glad the Dudes had the cojones to lay a RC out there even when they knew it wasn't perfect - that is what is best for the project.

On another point, I now think CSS is more complicated than PHP - PHP is at least more consistent across OS's than CSS is across browsers :)

You may choose to completely ignore the next suggestion, but I think using horrible colors during development using the standard 16 names is a good idea. I know what color "red" is, but not what #001913 is.  When I play with templates and CSS, I usually select gross colors mixes on purpose.  It comes down to choice - are you producing a "developers tool" or an "out of the box" application?

If you choose "developers tool" it would be unfair for people to flame you for bad (or even basic) color choices if  that was your *intention* - but it would probably happen.  :(
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Keyrocks on April 15, 2008, 03:19:08 AM
1)   The blokes with the idea to separate the admin style from the public style are on to something good - some of my CSS hacks customizations have hosed up the admin pages - having a consistent admin style could be very attractive to developers and those supporting customers websites.

2)   It's an RC, I'm an engineer too - hey, if you want it perfect you have to wait - maybe forever.   I'm glad the Dudes had the cojones to lay a RC out there even when they knew it wasn't perfect - that is what is best for the project.

3)   On another point, I now think CSS is more complicated than PHP - PHP is at least more consistent across OS's than CSS is across browsers :)

4)   You may choose to completely ignore the next suggestion, but I think using horrible colors during development using the standard 16 names is a good idea. I know what color "red" is, but not what #001913 is.


1)   Well... I'll drink to that. Add me to the list of those in search of an Admin template that works independently of the "public" template(s).  ;D

2)   We knew it wasn't perfect. We knew (at least I suspected) there'd be some controversy over some of the changes in the RC. And... by jumpin'... we got it. And that's just fine... no matter how hard anyone tries... you cannot and will not satisfy 100% of the people 100% of the time. It just isn't possible. So we take the criticism and skim the good stuff off the top.

3) Like most who get started making websites as a hobby... I started witha WYSIWYG web page appie (FrontPage) and thought tables and cells were cool. I just never reaslized it was possible to make pages with a lot less code... until I fell into this relationship with sNews. I knew sh**t about CSS and even less about PHP... so I can proudly say that I learned (almost) all of what I know (and it's far from a lot) here with the sNews gang over the past 2 years. Let's face it... when we stick with something for a good length of time... we learn from it and our skill-set becomes broader. I'm now at the stage where I seldom look at my CSS cheat-sheets... I'm increasingly able to type CSS from scratch.

4)  A simple color scheme would be white and black with one other primary color - red, brown, purple, green or blue... with shade of grey. One does get used to using the 6-digit color numbers though when working in any graphics application on a regular basis. Heck... you will even get to remember some of those off by heart as well... like #ff0000 for red.  ;)
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: invarbrass on April 18, 2008, 05:39:40 AM
* The CSS file is ~600 lines long and is too complex.

I wish I had a perfect answer of what to do about it, but I don't - I'm a CSS idiot.

However, I hate those who give negative feedback with no ideas for solutions so I'll try:

* Since the one file hurdle has been broken - maybe the CSS could be broken into multiple files too:

Examples, reset.css, layout.css, admin.css, contact.css, styles.css.

In summary, the complexity of all the CSS jammed into one monster file freaks me out.

Thanks for the consideration.

I don't think this is a good idea. with the world moving towards CSS sprites for faster web performance, increasing the number of additional files seems like a step backwards.

while designing you could split up CSS, JS anyway you like. but it's always a good idea to splice them up before deploying on live servers. I contributed some code to compress CSS scripts, it's in the snews 1.6 mods forum IIRC.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Fred K on April 18, 2008, 11:15:11 AM
...with the world moving towards CSS sprites (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/sprites) for faster web performance...

It is? Sheesh, must've missed that train... ;)
Personally, I'm waiting for the CSS3 train, but (like the Sprite train) it'll be a while ...erm, 7 years maybe... before all the cars are assembled and all Very Important Passengers are on board...

Compressing the CSS is generally a good idea though. I guess time constraints in this particular case lead to us not thinking in those terms -- I know I didn't (it's not second nature to me yet, but I'll try make it so, because as I said, it is a good idea.)
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: invarbrass on April 21, 2008, 03:10:54 AM
...with the world moving towards CSS sprites (http://www.alistapart.com/articles/sprites) for faster web performance...

It is? Sheesh, must've missed that train... ;)
Personally, I'm waiting for the CSS3 train, but (like the Sprite train) it'll be a while ...erm, 7 years maybe... before all the cars are assembled and all Very Important Passengers are on board...

Compressing the CSS is generally a good idea though. I guess time constraints in this particular case lead to us not thinking in those terms -- I know I didn't (it's not second nature to me yet, but I'll try make it so, because as I said, it is a good idea.)

http://alistapart.com/articles/sprites
http://css-tricks.com/css-sprites-what-they-are-why-theyre-cool-and-how-to-use-them/
http://www.fiftyfoureleven.com/weblog/web-development/css/css-sprites-images-optimization

http://www.csssprites.com/
http://spritegen.website-performance.org/
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Fred K on April 21, 2008, 05:08:13 AM
I'm still on the platform waiting for the CSS3 train to come along ... rounded corners, dropshadows, text-shadows, border-images (and now, with Webkit (http://[url=http://webkit.org/) thank you very much, gradients on backgrounds and borders*), multiple columns and a whole slew of other equally useless techniques [as sprites] all entirely without images. A lot of CSS3 can be used already, if we choose to ignore IE and --to some extent-- Opera, but, I'm waiting for the CSS3 train to come along.
Sprites I find less interesting, honestly. But hey -- to each his, her or its own.

---
*) http://webkit.org/blog/175/introducing-css-gradients/
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: khiddemann on April 21, 2008, 12:37:26 PM
BTW, I'm now buried in work, but i will release "sNews unlimited".
Can't find time right now to finish it. Nevertheless, I can create a test-website if you want to see it in action eventually.
It will be based on eq's subcat-1.6 with minor enchancements from 1.7 (only those, which are connected to speed improvement).
I'd be interested in that revamped version of yours.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: wackzingo on April 23, 2008, 03:24:01 AM
I agree with most of what Armen said, although I wouldn't have said it the same way.

There are only two major improvements I noticed right away:

1. It's much faster.
2. The ability to add sub-categories is awesome.

What I hate/dislike very much.

1. All the folders are beginning to make things cluttered. There are dozens of open source CMS's available with only a few folders. At this point, the line that separates sNEWS from all the others is starting to get blurry. Keep the added features, but go to a default template that doesn't require images. Let people create their own folder if/when it's needed. Also, put the javascript in the main core file, it's not that much. The performance difference won't be noticeable (Remove white-space if you're worried about it that much). I understand the language folder and CSS because those are absolutely needed; The others aren't.

The thing that has been most like about sNews is the simplicity and bare-boness (if that's a word). I like that it was simple, and as I needed functionality I just came to the forums and added some mods. I think it should stay that way.

Other than those things, it's appears to be a great release.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: celebro on April 23, 2008, 08:59:55 AM
Hello to all,

I have not been active in these forums for awhile sorry for stepping in but simply reading the forum posts and having a "lite" look over 1.7RC?  I must say I am very worried as to the future snews. There seems to be a broad change in snews without taking into account many required features that need to be implemented into the snews core before any major revision can take place. As quick suggestions (I have not tried the latest January release) I would like to suggest a few things.

1. Multi user's built directly into the core not as a separate fork of snews.
2. Speeding up the core as was done with 1.7RC
3. Proper article sorting (I really liked Bob's implementation better than my own (http://snewscms.com/forum/index.php?topic=1892.0) ;-) He beat me to coding it.)
4. A better Categories & Sub-Categories methods
5. Option to pin only certain articles to front page (see #3)
6. Site Statistics?
7. Was the File listing/upload reworked? last I recall it was terribly slow I posted somewhere about it.

Thats it for now I suppose, I will update my projects with the January release over the weekend, and re visit this post

PS: Bob just release 4-um please we waited long enough ;-D
PSSS..... btw, what ever happened to this http://phoorum.com/ (http://phoorum.com/)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
index.php
snews.php
admin.php
images/
site.css
index_LANG.php
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Voila!! Website done!





Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Keyrocks on April 23, 2008, 02:59:36 PM
Quote from: wackzingo
I agree with most of what Armen said, although I wouldn't have said it the same way.
There are only two major improvements I noticed right away:
1. It's much faster.
2. The ability to add sub-categories is awesome.

(Keep It Simple)
1. Keep the added features, but go to a default template that doesn't require images. Let people create their own folder if/when it's needed.
2. Put the javascript in the main core file, it's not that much. The performance difference won't be noticeable.
3. I understand the language folder and CSS because those are absolutely needed; The others aren't.
4. The "most liked" thing about sNews is the simplicity and bare-boness (if that's a word).
    I like that it was simple, and as I needed functionality I just came to the forums and added some mods. I think it should stay that way.
5. Other than those things, it's appears to be a great release.

Thanks for your suggestions Wackzingo... this is what the 1.7RC is about... getting suggestions to help us determine what the eventual release of 1.7 will contain. Your points are well taken.  :)

Quote from: J. Rivera
Hello to all,

I have not been active in these forums for awhile sorry for stepping in but simply reading the forum posts and having a "lite" look over 1.7RC?
 I must say I am very worried as to the future snews... seems to be a broad change in snews without taking into account many required features that need to be implemented into the snews core before any major revision can take place.
As quick suggestions:

1. Multi user's built directly into the core not as a separate fork of snews.
2. Speeding up the core as was done with 1.7RC
3. Proper article sorting (I really liked Bob's implementation better than my own (http://snewscms.com/forum/index.php?topic=1892.0) ;-) He beat me to coding it.)
4. A better Categories & Sub-Categories methods
5. Option to pin only certain articles to front page (see #3)
6. Site Statistics?
7. Was the File listing/upload reworked? last I recall it was terribly slow I posted somewhere about it.

PS: Bob just release 4-um please we waited long enough ;-D
PSSS..... btw, what ever happened to this http://phoorum.com/ (http://phoorum.com/)


Welcome Back J... and thanks for the input.
3 - Article Sorting or... as we've referred to it (while working on 1.7RC) Content Reordering for all content types... is actually on our worklist for inclusion in the 1.7 Stable release. However, as you've seen in earlier pages of this topic... the idea of including ANY modifications in 1.7RC at all has struck a sensitive nerve or two for a few of our long-time sNoozers (Armen and Codie to name a couple). The discussion on including Content Reordering still continues... I certainly agree with it.  :)

7 - The default file listing/uploading functions are slowed down by having a lot of folders and files available for viewing in them. In 1.7RC, you can lessen the load significantly by listing folders and files you don't need to view or upload to... in last 4 #SYSTEM VARIABLES strings in the language file(s). That way, only the folders regularly used for uploads will be visible. You can do the same in the 1.6 language variable array as well. Personally... I like having these and the database variables all in one config.php file so that they are all in one location for quick editing.

On Forum projects... Bob's 4-um and the Phoorum projects are not dead... just dormant. A few of the Dudes would like to see work on a Forum project continue... but we would rather stay focused on getting 1.7RC debugged and (eventually) have the 1.7 Stable released in its final form.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Sasha on April 27, 2008, 04:10:33 AM
no matter what you guys do,but, one thing I gotta say is keep the snews package plain and simple.That is what snews make different than the other CMS......i do not want to see snews with 5-6 files...period.... for people who want to see more files go download wordpress,drupal or other cms.......snews start with luka and he got lot of help from great people from this forum.many hours has been spend to accomplish this and now we need to destroy that..i ask you to ask your  self first and think about that...thank you...
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Keyrocks on April 27, 2008, 04:23:02 AM
no matter what you guys do,but, one thing I gotta say is keep the snews package plain and simple.That is what snews make different than the other CMS......i do not want to see snews with 5-6 files...period.... for people who want to see more files go download wordpress,drupal or other cms.......snews start with luka and he got lot of help from great people from this forum.many hours has been spend to accomplish this and now we need to destroy that..i ask you to ask your  self first and think about that...thank you...

We are thinking about that and some other things too. Thanks for dropping in and keeping tabs on us Sasha.  ;)
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: wackzingo on April 29, 2008, 08:14:21 AM
I've been thinking about the newest release as I just finished developing a new site using sNews 1.6 and I wanted to make a suggestion.

For the newest release, keep the same template as 1.6 and only make the make the modifications that improve speed and security and maybe 1 or 2 of the most request features. Then take a year or so and see what feedback you get before doing more.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: rainb0w on May 21, 2008, 11:17:31 AM
Is it also posible in this version to edit the size of the comment box and the size of the edit box in my site while I'm using the "include snews.php" function?? Now if people want to leave an comment to my site the box is only something like 20px width :\

The settings are included in my homepage and they look quite smooth and all very nice :) the auto detect function on RC1 is also rlly an improvement beceause last time it didn't worked for me to give the right variables but now it autodetects its rlly smooth  ;D (must be some hard coding huh?  :o :)) looking forward to RC2 ;)
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: jalil on July 07, 2008, 10:02:54 PM
hi people,

i came across sNews by accident ( google accident ) and was rather pleasantly surprised at the whole thing.

the original idea of a one file ( one PHP file that is ) cms that does it all is a very good and powerful idea, as it opens up huge possibilities.

i am of the opinion that departing from this, for whatever reason would be defeating the prupose of the existence and perhaps initial vision of sNews. but i understand the rights of developers to go anyway they wish to i have no qualms at all about this.

i just wish to ask if it is alright, to take the 1.6 version and build it up on my own to be a one PHP file cms, which i will make available to the public freely. I have a need for such a tool, and for the moment ( before another google accident ) i am inclined to adopt sNews 1.6. ( or lower, haven't checked it all out ).

Thanks much for your advise and pointers.

p/s i am of the opinion that sNews should aim to grow to be smaller in file size, instead of larger and more files, while adding more functionality. i'll probably be shot for saying this, but yes, i do believe it so.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: funlw65 on July 07, 2008, 10:11:46 PM
Hi Jalil,
No one will shot you here for your opinion. Yes, is great to have a little cms with only one file. But in time, the needs grow and you end up with a large file or 2-3 large parts. Because we don't have yet a plug in system. Equilni have one but no one tried it yet, no time... maybe when winter will came ...
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Joost on July 08, 2008, 12:53:47 AM
p/s i am of the opinion that sNews should aim to grow to be smaller in file size, instead of larger and more files, while adding more functionality. i'll probably be shot for saying this, but yes, i do believe it so.


Yep, around 50, 60kb would be a nice file size. Easier to maintain.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: jalil on September 11, 2008, 11:28:07 PM
been quite a while.

i finally managed to steal some time to try snews 1.7, and i must say i am not at all dissapointed !
my hats off to the team who build this, whoever you are.

i am a small time joomla developer, i somehow think snews would fit in very nicely into one of my projects,
which is to give users their own pages.

in fact, with snews, not only do they get their own pages, they also get what,,,,rss, categories, archives, comments.
all that in a puny box. so i am contemplating seriously, tough me not want to jump too quickly.
the only issue i have is that i currently provide index.php.

a quick look under the hood tells me the index.php of snews can be of any name, so perhaps all would be fine.

my oh my, what do you guys drink ( or smoke ) to come up with something like this ?  ;D
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Keyrocks on September 17, 2008, 06:49:11 AM
1 - The only issue i have is that i currently provide index.php. A quick look under the hood tells me the index.php of snews can be of any name, so perhaps all would be fine.

2 - My oh my, what do you guys drink ( or smoke ) to come up with something like this ?  ;D


1 - Every website must have a file named index so the server can find it... and the reason for that is that all web servers are pretty much configured to look for index.php... or index.htm... or index.html... before they look for anything else. With sNews... we use the index.php file to do three things:
a)  enable the main "engine" file (snews.php) so that all of its functions are available to power the site,
b)  contain all of the site's template,
c)  and contain the function-names for each of the functions that display their content within the template.

However, an index.php file can be configured without the template itself actually being in it. We could start the index.php file by calling the snews.php engine file, then calling a template-header file, a template-content file, and a template-footer file. It could look like this:
Code: [Select]
<?php

include('snews.php');
include(
'header.php');
include(
'content.php');
include(
'footer.php');

?>





Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: funlw65 on September 17, 2008, 01:24:21 PM
Sir,
I think he want a one big project, and having each user with his own snews: "which is to give users their own pages" . He is working in Joomla. And I think he already have an index.php, from other "project"....

My thougthts:
- he want to use inside joomla (I know someone doing this :P), or
- he want to simulate multiuser version. or
- a mysterious project ;D

Hi Jalil, which one? ;D
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Keyrocks on September 17, 2008, 04:07:02 PM
Sir,
I think he want a one big project, and having each user with his own snews: "which is to give users their own pages" . He is working in Joomla. And I think he already have an index.php, from other "project"....

My thougthts:
- he want to use inside joomla (I know someone doing this :P), or
- he want to simulate multiuser version. or
- a mysterious project ;D

Hi Jalil, which one? ;D

Ahhh... my apology... it was late last nite so I guess I missed that.
His note that - a quick look under the hood tells me the index.php of snews can be of any name, so perhaps all would be fine. - threw me off.

Yes... you can install sNews in several directories within a domain root and have all of their database tables in one sNews database... with the result being several individual "sub-sites". Each will run independently of each other and whatever (Joomla or other CMS) is running in the root.

Sub-site One - sNews file-set in html_public/subone folder, at - domain.com/subone/
        snews dbase tables prefixed as - sub1_articles, sub1-categories, sub1_comments, sub1_settings.

Sub-site Two - sNews file-set in html_public/subtwo folder, at - domain.com/subtwo/
        snews dbase tables prefixed as - sub2_articles, sub2_categories, sub2_comments, sub2_settings.

Sub-site Three - sNews file-set in html_public/subthree folder, at - domain.com/subthree/
        snews dbase tables prefixed as - sub3_articles, sub3_categories, sub3_comments, sub3_settings.

... and so on.

Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: jalil on February 07, 2009, 10:20:12 PM
been awhile, apologies for being silent, i was engrossed deeply into my own project/world, and did not get any notification of replies from this post. :(

and am happy to find this forum and news is not dead, people actually answer my questions ! that is very good indeed.

so a bit about joomla news and progress, and a recap as to why i posted.

i am working on a personal project to allow users to have their own pages, and have done so, only that i am still wrestling with the many editors out there trying to be compatible to all. also i got my own set of bugs to fight and
having to comply to two joomla standards/versions is not easy, that much i can surely tell u !

however, i have succeeded, and will continue to progress and add on features to my app.

now on back to SNEWS,

 i am still strongly contemplating to provide users with their own snews pages, even if it is as an option.
i feel that some breed of users may not be happy with mere HTML. they would want complete control of who
access their pages and how they would appear.

the idea is this. what i have now, allows users to make html pages and have their own folders.
but the dream of all users, really, is to have their own 'domain'.
meaning , not a fully paid cpaneled domain, but a directory of site, where they can call their own domain.
thi sis sufficient say for school children, or for small time business people who just control over their own "sites"
without the burden of the huge domains.

certainly they can afford their own domains, that is not the issue. the issue is, they do not have the know how to manager their own domain, and would not waste their time or risk making mistakes handling their own full fledged domain. they would rather settle for something small and mageable but productive. i would recommend so as well.

that said, SNEWS fits it very nicely. i ahve not seen any other appplication/project that comes close to SNEWS in terms of completeness and compactness.

now here the trouble. i am gasping for air having done several thousand lines of codes. they are all necessary, and in fact i have shrunk them and thrown out where and what i feel is fat, and tried to make it as lean as possible.

that leaves me with very little time to test out and debug other apps, i am still not done with my own.

finally here comes the big question... :)

is there anyone here willing to work with me to make this happen ?
this = SNEWS implementable as a standalone add on to any joomla website.

the idea is a small package that plugs in into any joomla website directory and becomes immediately a mini-website
taking advantage of the joomla framework, while at the same time remian independent enough for users to have complete control over their directory/site.

i guess this is directed to the SNEWS debvelopers, but i am open to anyone who can and is wililng to habndle the SNEWS part of the works. i am willing to cross over help one in a while of course, it would perhaps be essential.

above all, i want this to be fun work. if it ain't goint to be fun, i ain't doing it. :)

the project i work on will be GPL, general public licensed, but support isn't free and is quite pricey.
they are intended for large serios users, not kids wanting to impress their mates on their page making capability.

SNEWS, looks to me to be very professional. it is that professionalism which i am hoping can be extended to more users.

adios, have a nice day !










Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: jalil on February 07, 2009, 10:35:58 PM
1 - Every website must have a file named index so the server can find it... and the reason for that is that all web servers are pretty much configured to look for index.php... or index.htm... or index.html... before they look for anything else.


true, most hosts configure it like that, however mod-rewrite can easily redirect the index.php to another file.
so it is not really a hassle to perform a renaming of the files.

With sNews... we use the index.php file to do three things:
a)  enable the main "engine" file (snews.php) so that all of its functions are available to power the site,
b)  contain all of the site's template,
c)  and contain the function-names for each of the functions that display their content within the template.

thanks for the explanation, it helps understand the design of SNEWS better.
puttting SNEWS in a directory of its own, with all files intact, would enable one to use SNEWS
as their own 'website'. am i right in saying this ?


However, an index.php file can be configured without the template itself actually being in it. We could start the index.php file by calling the snews.php engine file, then calling a template-header file, a template-content file, and a template-footer file. It could look like this:
Code: [Select]
<?php

include('snews.php');
include(
'header.php');
include(
'content.php');
include(
'footer.php');

?>




beautiful, very clean clear and consise design.
it is in fact superb for xhtml pages.

thanks again, i will make it a point to come here often, just wish i can get notifications from the forum, but if not it will not be too difficult to bookmark it and make it here after a cuppa. c you all later.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: jalil on February 07, 2009, 10:53:15 PM
My thougthts:
- he want to use inside joomla (I know someone doing this :P), or
- he want to simulate multiuser version. or
- a mysterious project ;D

Hi Jalil, which one? ;D

what so mysterious about a web project  ;D ?

here are the answer for you young inquisitive man...:)

->inside joomla....
no, that would defeat the purpose of using joomla in the first place.
one CMS is enough for one site, no ?
it amounts to what i consider, stupid.

- >he want to simulate multiuser version. or

not to simulate multiuser, but to actually have a multiuser independent site.

you can have one billion users on a joomla site, but they will all be dependend on joomla.

but if you have SNEWS for each and every user, they are all independent of joomla, have access to all joomla
and site services, and yet still have full control of their mini sites.
i would say that would be a pretty good deal, won't you ?

which is why i keep coming back to this idea, which up till now is still pretty much an idea.
and BTW, it is not only Joomla, it applies to Drupal, Word press or whatever else have you out there.

speaking of CMS, i better get started on my own SNEWS site, just to get famliar with it.
and have lots fun !

ciao. don't loose sleep thinking about it man !

Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: centered on February 08, 2009, 02:09:52 AM
jalil, I am so lost in what you are trying to say.  Joomla, sNews, your own project? What are you talking about?
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: jalil on February 08, 2009, 03:50:56 AM
jalil, I am so lost in what you are trying to say.  Joomla, sNews, your own project? What are you talking about?

if you are refering to the post above, it was in reponse to the guy asking/theorirising what i am going to do with SNEWS
and Joomla.

to answer your question, and if you are referring to my other post asking for a developer to join, i am reffering to a new joint effort. it will be a project, not mine, its just my idea in my head right now, but anyones projects, for anyone who wants to dig in the codes together.

so i am proposing a new joint development effort to make or allow SNEWS to operate inside its own directory ( which from reading the responses to my posts suggest very strongly it can do as is ) plus some kind of hooks, API's or whatever that makes SNEWS 'visible' from the main site CMS.

so it is Joomla, it is SNEWS, and of course i want to be part of it somewhere but i can't do it alone as it is quite involved i think, but it would be fun. so i posted here, hoping some of the original authors and thinkers of SNEWS may wish to pursue this idea.

the idea is to use Joomla as a SNEWS manager, where it is in this sense , the "Content" in the CMS refers to
SNEWS. Users can then have their own sites, the Joomla main site acts merely as directory services to user pages.
Joomla on its own of course can be a website, but that isn't the point here.

If you have say 1000 users, you cannot display each and every page on a single SNEWS platform,
( the would be fighting for control of the site template like kids fighting for the remote :) )
but you can, if you use a bigger CMS, especially at root level, where even files, capacity and permissions can be controlled and distributed, then we are in for some fun. the result is one thousand independent 'sites'.

On the other hand, Joomla can easily dispense each and everyone a page for a thousand users, but the user have no control over acess, statistics, layouts etc etc. The 1000 users all have to have the same template, same layout, and same URL.

so we start with joomla, then we go on drupal, word press etc etc. but i won't jump the gun, so i will confine to joomla first as it is easiest or maybe second easiest.

It is a case of wether the user has a small room in a super large hotel, or large room in a small little home but which you can call your own. there are of course those who can afford to buy up the whole super hotel, but they won't even be reading this.

So my aim is to have the best of both worlds. Why not ?
that is how i see it.


On my part, i am voluntering my codes for interfacing and interworking.
as it is now, it is only me with this crazy idea. but i am hoping
it would be acccepted. if not, its ok too,  i would just put it away.


(  btw i noticed there are some noises about mods ( as in modifcations ). i thinks if SNEWS has an API,
mods will not be an issue as they can utlise API, and eventually become part of SNEWS if suitable. )




If you by now can see my point, i would have gotten somewhere with my clumsy typing, and worth well my tired fingers....:)

thanks for your response and time.
ta.





Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Joost on February 08, 2009, 03:57:04 AM
not to simulate multiuser, but to actually have a multiuser independent site.......

ciao. don't loose sleep thinking about it man !



I won't loose sleep on it.
Here it is, (http://snewscms.com/forum/index.php?topic=5266.msg34191#msg34191) since 2007
One thing you need to do:
Find function filelist, which is a recursive function, executed by function files (directly above).
Find a way to stop this function from traversing the entire webspace. Make it point to its own upload directory.
Then you're done.

Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: jalil on February 08, 2009, 04:29:45 PM
thank you, very nice informative thread.
when i get to it, i will look out for function filelist zapping the whole website :)

myNews

i spent some time playing with sNews yesterday and today. it is very entertaining, kinda like music.
spent some time tinkering with codes, and came up with a solution for IIS or non-mod-rewrite installations.

this is because i installed sNews on an Apache without a mod-rewrite which puts me pretty much in the IIS position.
i got irked ( with myself ) for not being able to login to sNews, as it http server keeps throwing a 404 at me.

so i rolled up my sleeves and here is an finished IIS versios of sNews 17, which i call sNews 17 Windows.
( file sNews1.7_Windows_000.zip )

it is working on my local host fine.
i have not the chance to test it thouroughly, but the basics were working, logins and all menus
*except* rss-articles, am not sure why that menu won't kick in, but i will come back to that later.

for now i just want to share and hope someone can test this IIS or non mod-rewrite version.
i want to roll down my sleeves again and fetch my cigarette, and enjoy my own sNews install.

at least i my local sNews is functional now, yahoo!.

p/s can't atach files to this forum apparently, or maybe i just don't know , meanwhile i will put in on another site and provide the down link in the next post.
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: jalil on February 08, 2009, 05:46:08 PM
ok, here they are...

sNews1.7_Windows

Small explanation here... (http://phpcodes.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=55:snews-17-windows&catid=47:snews&Itemid=63)
Downloads here... (http://phpcodes.org/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=40&Itemid=58)

( note : downloads require registration at the site )

Note : PHP 5 ONLY ( for now )
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Joost on February 08, 2009, 08:20:45 PM
Jalil,

Surely I am not going to register somewhere else to download sNews related scripts. You mentioned having  webspace somewhere. Why not upload it there and create a direct download link?
Work in progress (not ready to go mods), you can post in section "Programming/Mods-in-development" (http://snewscms.com/forum/index.php?board=93.0)
Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: jalil on February 09, 2009, 12:40:43 AM
Jalil,
Surely I am not going to register somewhere else to download sNews related scripts. You mentioned having  webspace somewhere. Why not upload it there and create a direct download link?

was meant as temporary download, i was waiting for a prompt from you guys where it should go.
( the file ).

yes, i can put it anywhere on the planet, but i thought you guys have some kind of file collection/listing center
so i was waiting for some kind of prompt. if you guys don't do that or don't have that, it's ok, i will find
a free host and just post the link in this forum.

just that i have not done it like that before, there usually be a place to send it proper.
so my apologies, will put it wherever u think is best.


Work in progress (not ready to go mods), you can post in section "Programming/Mods-in-development" (http://snewscms.com/forum/index.php?board=93.0)

no thanks, i don't fancy being in mods area. if it's with you ok, i will just hang around the lobby.
lol, it is not work in progress. it is not work !
if you want me to work, you gotta pay me for it.

btw, are the links in the demo text of snews ( the one shipped with snews zip file ) manually made or are they
generated by snews. i guess they must be manually made, as they do not change when i change the site URI.

goodnight, c y all later.



Title: Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
Post by: Joost on February 09, 2009, 01:01:26 AM
We do have limited space to upload (zip) files. Right know it is full. I guess we (administrators) have to think about a proper procedure (not randomly) to remove old packages, so new ones can be uploaded.

if you want me to work, you gotta pay me for it.

I didn't say you have to work and I am most certainly not going to pay for it. But right now this discussion takes place in:

Quote from: breadcrumb
sNews Forum > Previous sNews versions > sNews 1.7 RC > sNews 1.7 RC > Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC

Not the place where anyone would look for scripts or discussion about programming ideas.