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Author Topic: To begin at the beginning  (Read 30433 times)

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Re: To begin at the beginning
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2008, 12:28:27 AM »

http://snewscms.com/forum/index.php?topic=7748.msg55630#msg55630

Joost well said.  I don't we will need the Nested Set Model, I don't think any CMS would implement a system such as that unless it is an enterprise system, which sNews is not

I will point out that alot has been said to what defines sNews and what is sNews's main audience.  I would like to say that in accordance with Joost, sNews should be catered to the small, lite CMS category and group as it always been.  If sNews is to be a developer's tool, then a plugin system is just the next step in making the system easier for developers to develop with.  It will also be easier for end users who don't know alot or any php/mysql/javascript to just add the plugin to the files or pull from a repository. 

The other comment is sNews should be easier for the end user as well.  Not to say sNews isn't easy for the end user, but it can be better and focus more on the end user.

Pretty simply, if sNews is a developer's tool, then we should focus on what developers are using for sites. If it is for our end users, then let's make it simple and intuitive for the end users ot use and maintain thier sites. I think sNews should and can be both.  I have always been against the statement - "sNews is not - geared towards the end-user who knows little or nothing about building and developing PHP-MySQL based websites." Since alot of people come to sNews because they want a small system that is easy to use and not bloated.  sNews should be easy for devs and for the end users to help them build and maintain their sites.
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jlhaslip

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Re: To begin at the beginning
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2008, 01:28:36 AM »

1 - 1.6 and 1.7 run fine for me with PHP 5.2.6 and MySQL up to 5.0.51a. So anything we do should remain compatible with (up to) those versions.

PHP 4 end of life announcement, so for me sNews requires PHP version 5.x or above.
php 6 compatible as well.
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Keyrocks

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Re: To begin at the beginning
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2008, 05:42:34 PM »

Bang on there Bob!  ;D
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funlw65

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Re: To begin at the beginning
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2008, 06:00:37 PM »

Supporting Bakercad...

The editor for our clients was always a problem.
 -  Hard to integrate, too slow, sometimes too big, available on all edit area (wizzywig), breaking layout, problems with [break], etc...
And sometimes (many times?), was the big reason for choosing another CMS solution (not for us but for client)...

And I am in favor of separated tables (articles, pages, extras) for easy adding fields and features...
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Knitter

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Re: To begin at the beginning
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2008, 02:53:18 PM »

I'm realy new to sNews, and I'm still evaluating the system, but I'll try to chip in my 2 cents, maybe anything useful gets out of them :). Oh, and this can be a bit boring....

I found sNews by chance, I wasn't looking for it, it just landed on me, but I was captivated by the all "CMS in a file thing". A simple and easy to use platform for site development. Since I had a site to create I just downloaded and started using it. And so that's my experience with the all system, I've been creating a site with it and have been looking at how the tihng works and behaves.

As for the topic, please bare in mind that my knowledge of the system is limited, and 1.6 only...

Quote
1) What is bare basic critical for a useable engine
How do you do that without setting the project's objective? It has been said in this thread more than once, you need to determine what sNews is and what sNews isn't. After that has been settled you can move to choose the core functions.

Quote
2) What are bare basic enhancements that 80-100% are likely to want/use
As a user, what I would like to see is 1.6 with a few corrections. Article/Page editor seem a little weird with my current theme, comments box has the wrong size and it's hard if one only wants to create the CSS and not work the PHP. There are a few glitches that need to be sorted out.
On to more feature oriented requests:
    - a plugin system is definitely a must;
    - a cache system could be provided as a plugin. Though not a basic system, it could be offered as standard plugin.
    - maintain the features of 1.6
    - allow for more than one user.

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3) Do we chase the natively pluggable option
If the system is pluggable by design, from the start, even if the hooks are not implemented, they could be easily added, also, some features would be nice to have but are not critical, therefor a plugin system is, in my view, mandatory.
I'm a user of Project Pier, also a collaborator to the project, for those that don't know it, it's a fork of activeCollab, that allows for project management based on tasks and milestones. One of the problems we are seeing now is that activeCollab did not had a plugin system, so the PP also doesn't have one, and for the few versions that wore released, no system was haded. It is now clear that to add a plugin system a lot of code must be recreated, the all PP will need to be redesigned, and though it's not the biggest of systems, it is nevertheless a very big one.

If you don't add the plugin base now, you'll go over the same issues, a plugin system will force major rewrites to the code, and that will add work load, new problems and a all news bug line.

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4) OOP
OOP simplifies the development, makes problems clear to solve and is a really good addition, it will have lots of benefits. But you must also consider that it takes time to get used to, and to learn it correctly, and that you're using a language that is not as OOP as one would like, even PHP5 lacs features to be considered a good OOP language.
If you have no OOP experience, than, as much as I love OOP, I must recommend against it. The system is to small for those that don't know OOP to learn it and use it properly, wrong OOP is that worst thing you could do. Also as the project is small, OOP can easily be left out.

Quote
5) What do snews users want from 2.0
You'll have to ask that to the users, only they can tell you what they want. I know everyone of us is also a user, but we bring only our own experiences to the discussion, and as developers we tend to have a short sight. It is important to gather as many examples of how sNews is being used and see if all the project goals are being met and go against what the users want.


5. There was a discussion somewhere about Jquery, I don't know where.  How does everyone feel towards the JS frameworks?
 - When Ajax is mentioned, please elaborate on that.  Certain functions could be achieved using AHAH, which in turns keeps the overall file size smaller.   
Leave AJAX out. That's my opinion. AJAX is a nice mix of technologies but it is overused, overrated, etc. Though I can understand a bit of AJAX in the editor or some admin interface, sNews is too simple and could go well without AJAX.

target - people who want to use a lightweight, adjustable cms, and still don't mind getting hands dirty with code...
-- cache and switcher may well be operable through plugin system, therefore not basic critical for most users.
A lightweight CMS for developers that don't mind getting their hands dirty is CMS Made Simple ;)

This has been the question that stayed in my mind since I read about 1.7: "where are they going?". For me, a user with little knowledge about the system, 1.6 seems perfect to work on, 1.7 seems like I'll move to other systems because that version came to me in a way that does not meet my first reason to use sNews.
Even now, if you develop version 2.0 with too much features you'll end up competing with CMS Made Simple, WordPress, and every little PHP framework out there, and I must say, that those projects are well know and well established amongst web developers and competing with them will not be easy, you'll end up using sNews because you saw it grow and love it and not because it's the right system for you or your clients.

My point for the all 2.0 thing: grab the features and goals that made sNews a system of choice, grab 1.6, rewrite it with a plugin system, clean the code and correct as many mistakes as possible, work the 1.6 idea as the base for the new 2.0.

Now that I reread the all text, I understand that maybe this was not the 'help' you wanted :D, sorry about that.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 02:56:14 PM by Knitter »
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funlw65

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Re: To begin at the beginning
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2008, 03:44:27 PM »

Yep! And even for 1.6, that thing from center() with all content in one table and substring, etc., is hard to learn....  Is a zone where new users ask for help. You still need more time to learn all the tricks...
Developers have years of sNews experience...
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Joost

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Re: To begin at the beginning
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2008, 05:49:17 PM »

Luka developed it in the first place in order to have a base to build his own client sites from.  That's exactly what sNews is....a base to build upon.  IMO, it should stay that way.
These are the words I was looking for: ....a base to build upon.


1) sNews should be developed toward & backward compatible with the earliest SUPPORTED versions of PHP/MySQL/Apache.  PHP4 is dead...time to move on.

PHP4 is not dead.... on cheap hosting (even php3 seems to be around) ::). However, I agree on PHP5. If sNews2.0 happens to run on 4.1, then someone is lucky. But it is not an objective.
Hosters are quite often reluctant to upgrade dbservers for obvious reasons. The 4.x series is (although officially dead) widely used. So I am not to eager to leave mysql 4 behind.
Mysql 5 brings stored procedures and 5.0.2 introduced triggers. I don't expect we will be in desparate need of these. I would start from 4.1 (nested queries start there).

Anyone desperate for sqlite?

Unlike Joost, I see some huge benefits of OOP (i'm working almost strictly in OOP at my new job), when used wisely.

Nevertheless, it seems we both don't see future for OOP in sNews
I think procedural programming should be used wisely too. ;)

Now that I reread the all text, I understand that maybe this was not the 'help' you wanted :D, sorry about that.

Speaking for myself: You did help.
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Sasha

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Re: To begin at the beginning
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2008, 08:35:50 PM »

snews is dead
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Keyrocks

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Re: To begin at the beginning
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2008, 10:09:16 PM »

snews is dead

Speaking for yourself... that is. It's still alive and well for me and others who like using it. BTW... you'll like my snews 1.6 Modules version... which now automatically recognizes and includes Modules once they are added to the root/modules folder. The only drawback is you'd have to figure out how to make a module.  ;)
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Sasha

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Re: To begin at the beginning
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2008, 11:40:52 PM »

 i like modules better then this mods, adons also you own me ONE carma  >:(
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funlw65

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Re: To begin at the beginning
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2008, 11:33:27 AM »

snews is dead

Can't be Sasha... my thoughts:

1. 1.7 version will be useful for many people (maybe will have many 'mod makers' - new comers and old users/programmers)  . In a way or another, I will get familiar with those 'weird' queries (because of Revolutions package of Rui).
2. 1.6 will be used and modified until 2.0 (I hope 2.0 will be a success). Key's plug-able version will be a good alternative for some mods. I will try it on Rui's last package (Revolutions) and port some mods of mine just to see how it works and for fun. Also, I can't wait to see OOP version of Rui (he said is almost done).
3. At the end we will have many flavors of sNews (one for everyone) and this is great. Keeping all forks and mods under one flag will keep sNews alive. And will attract many young php developers and web designers. Does not matter if they will grow up and choose a more advanced CMS... maybe this will be in sNews advantage,

I 'sent' you a karma to erase Key's 'debt'.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 07:15:01 PM by funlw65 »
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Keyrocks

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Re: To begin at the beginning
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2008, 04:52:55 PM »

i like modules better then this mods, adons also you own me ONE carma  >:(

A karma... for what... did I miss something?
Maybe I am not clear on what your statement means. Do you mean that you would find a Modules system more convenient to use than Mods & Addons?

I should note that my Modules system cannot replace all Mods and Addons... as some will always need additional changes throughout the snews.php (engine) file. It is still in the fine-tuning stage and can be used as a starting point for those of us who wish to further its development.  :)
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 05:00:46 PM by Keyrocks »
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Sasha

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Re: To begin at the beginning
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2008, 03:38:08 AM »

yes i think modules is going to be easy to use for me and many others.its give snews hole new look and for graphic designs is easy to work around.i know many people who do good designs but not many people know php coding.also with modules you going to have more people to use snews.snews is made by Luka for his personal usage which we all do but in todays world when all cms going one step more we all need to do that.i start from me first i always ask you guys for help me with something and i do not want do that.i want to save your time and save my time too.like graphic designer i do not want to spend lot of time to do coding with snews and then do design.i just lose lot of free time coding php.i think modules going to speed proces a lot faster for basic user like me.just look at word press.i know i know snews is not like word press but hey if you think snews is good cms which i think is i do not see any problem to do modules.we can keep core from snews lets say 1.6 and make that with modules.we not need to separate core like word press (header,footer and all that) we can make one or two files plus modules.i do not see anything wrong with that.i only see better proces in designs and easy to use for many people..i do not give up on snews.... some time i m mad becouse i cant figure out something with snews php and i use lot of words like "shit" and all that but trust me this is nothing personal against anybody this is only my natural reaction.i know some time i over react for something and say something wrong but i only do that when i m frustrated with something i cant figure out in most cases with php coding.this is nothing personal agains anybody this is only my opinion how to make snews better cms... :)
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« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2008, 08:04:59 AM »

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Re: To begin at the beginning
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2008, 11:26:31 AM »

yes i think modules is going to be easy to use for me and many others.its give snews hole new look and for graphic designs is easy to work around.i know many people who do good designs but not many people know php coding.also with modules you going to have more people to use snews.snews is made by Luka for his personal usage which we all do but in todays world when all cms going one step more we all need to do that.i start from me first i always ask you guys for help me with something and i do not want do that.i want to save your time and save my time too.like graphic designer i do not want to spend lot of time to do coding with snews and then do design.i just lose lot of free time coding php.i think modules going to speed proces a lot faster for basic user like me.just look at word press.i know i know snews is not like word press but hey if you think snews is good cms which i think is i do not see any problem to do modules.we can keep core from snews lets say 1.6 and make that with modules.we not need to separate core like word press (header,footer and all that) we can make one or two files plus modules.i do not see anything wrong with that.i only see better proces in designs and easy to use for many people..i do not give up on snews.... some time i m mad becouse i cant figure out something with snews php and i use lot of words like "shit" and all that but trust me this is nothing personal against anybody this is only my natural reaction.i know some time i over react for something and say something wrong but i only do that when i m frustrated with something i cant figure out in most cases with php coding.this is nothing personal agains anybody this is only my opinion how to make snews better cms... :)

Well said Sasha, exactly why there is a push for plugins/modules.  If sNews will continue to be a developers tool, it needs to change with the developers, but also stay basic enough for the new users to understand.  A good API with good documentation must come out too, otherwise users will be all over the place and not understand. 
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