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Author Topic: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC  (Read 54027 times)

funlw65

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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2008, 06:03:18 PM »

If sNews is better in one file, then let it be that way.

I think sNews is known better for theme independency (the most important factor and the main glue for this comunity of programmers, web designers, writers and artists). And very good ONLY for small projects. And sNews Dudes changing things for a better sNews...
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Keyrocks

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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2008, 06:14:15 PM »

Quote from: BAKERCAD
I'm not sure it was a good idea to change the title as it was the original author's intent.  Don't want this forum turn into a place where users are "censored" when expressing themselves.

Quote from: PATRIC
I think I'm with Bob here... Even though I have strong feelings (calmed down now ) about the way Armen expressed himself, I don't think we should cencor his or any other posts unless it contains SPAM, and crap. However not well put Armens choice of title was, it was his choice, and by editing it, we might be concidered, not a democracy, but something else... I vote to change it back.

I can appreciate your concern over potential for unnecessary censorship. The change was not intended as such and was not made without giving it some thought and consideration beforehand. The change was made for a legitimate reason. Administrators do have the perogative of making a decision on their own when they believe it is necessary.

In this case... the title was significantly inaccurate... relating to sNews 1.7 and not the fact that it is - at this time - only an RC distro that is subject to change. Further, the title was unfairly critical - slanderous to be more accurate - of the sNews project in a way that adversely affects the project's overall reputation. It is not an abomination. A statement such as this is no different that a slanderous one made in hard-print (like in a newspaper). Once it's printed... it's on the record... as indexed links are on the web... where it can be taken out of context by anyone who may choose to (for whatever reason) damage the reputation of the sNews project.

We are (by and large) all grown-ups here on these Forums. I expect all members to be as considerate and respectful to others as I am. I expect them to be grown up enough to apologise when they 'go over the top' and make reasonable changes and/or apologies when their slip-up has been noted.

Again, Armen has been invited to edit his post which provides him with the opportunity to retract his slanderous statement. Up till now, he has chosen to remain silent and has taken no such action.

I trust this clarifies the reasoning behind the decision.
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codetwist

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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2008, 06:22:43 PM »

@Dom: This was discussed here already. Some of dudes clearly expressed that they don't need kind of a roadmap/priorities/whatever because RCs will do instead. Absolute classic :(
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Armen

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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2008, 06:33:01 PM »

@Dom: This was discussed here already. Some of dudes clearly expressed that they don't need kind of a roadmap/priorities/whatever because RCs will do instead. Absolute classic :(


Absolutely precise, codie. That's what bothers me the most. No centralized authority. No quality-control. "Dudes" decide, "dudes" choose, "dudes" this or that. Instead of global poll for every change and elementary constancy in sNews roadmapping. If there's any, that is...

Who told you I'd like extras sections support in the core? I don't.
And it's going to take some time to figure out how to get rid of them.
MOD it was, MOD it should stay. I don't want another table. See? Wow! Another opinion. The opposite one, that is!

And for those, who say this is just an RC: do you really think all those mods were added by "dudes", so "dudes" would get rid of them in the future? They've already decided on that. Mods stay. Got it? Fine, fine, we did.

But since some of the "dudes" may not know the meaning of the "RC" term, I'll help:
RC means "Release Candidate". It's not a BETA. It's an RC. That means it wouldn't change much.

If you want community to decide, which mods to include in the core, release BETA, not RC, like a bunch of people decide for the whole community.

RC is for bughunting. Not code-revision. BETA's for such things.

So my reaction was perfectly normal: "They are calling THIS an RC???"

Noooo, thank you. I'll pass. I'll stick with 1.6.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 06:57:31 PM by Armen »
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Keyrocks

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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2008, 06:39:28 PM »

Quote from: DOM
Maybe sNews project leaders should come up with a clear mission statement, available to everybody, so that "sNews Dudes" are always on the right track...
I suppose to someone this could seem like something irrelevant but it is really a cornerstone of everything. Without that you're lost and as you turn around you're no longer yourself - you became somebody else.

Quote from: funlw65
If sNews is better in one file, then let it be that way.
I think sNews is known better for theme independency (the most important factor and the main glue for this comunity of programmers, web designers, writers and artists). And very good ONLY for small projects. And sNews Dudes changing things for a better sNews...

@ Dom... your suggestion is a very good one and I (as one Dude) agree with it 100%.
From the time I first logged in to solucija (April 2006) when 1.4 was the latest version... up to the release of 1.6... there was no need to have a formal Mission Statement and a list of guiding development principles. The project was driven by its Author (Luka) with one additional code writer - Mika. Both Luka and Mika appeared to work as if they were one person and of "one mind".

As we go through adult life... we are all faced with new circumstances that require us to change what we focus on as individuals. In Mika's case... he found it necessary to leave the sNews project to focus on other pressing matters of greater importance in his life. Luka has also been doing the same for several months. Luka decided to leave the development of 1.7 up to a larger "ad-hoc" team of "Dudes" because he knew he didn't have the time to lead it himself.

As you can imagine... this has not been and easy process for us (the Dudes) this first time around. We are a "loose confederacy" of volunteers from all around the globe. We have never met face-to-face, and we all have differing visions of what we think sNews could or should be... and our work (this time around) has been largely accomplished without a formal Vision Statement and set of Guiding Principles. We do, however, realize that developing this is an important priority and will definitely work on this in the very near future.

@ funlw65... I tend to agree with your point that sNews is known (and appreciated) more for its template independency. It is one of the main reasons I enjoy working with it and using it for actual sites. I believe the actual folder and file structure is less important... it is nothing more than a way adding a higher degree of organization between the core engine functions and their supporting (secondary) scripts. Indeed... template independency is the first and most imporant principles for future development.
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Keyrocks

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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2008, 06:58:50 PM »

Quote from: CODIE
@Dom: This was discussed here already. Some of dudes clearly expressed that they don't need kind of a roadmap/priorities/whatever because RCs will do instead. Absolute classic :(

I can appreciate your point Codetwist... and as I pointed out in my response to DOM (above)... it isn't a matter of "not needing" a roadmap or priority list all. You should understand that "We Dudes" jumped into this "responsibility" out of our own desire to volunteer and help out... nothing more. There is not one "iota" of compensation for any of us when the deed is done. Can we learn from our experiences?  Yes, we can. Are the Dudes willing to learn from this experience? Knowing the other "Dudes" as I do... I know we are. Did we have a list of "Priorities" at the outset? Yes, we did (as clearly explained in my first post in this topic string). Did we consult openly on the short-list with all Forum members? No... we did not. And perhaps that was an error in judgement. Perhaps it would have been useful to conduct a poll before actually starting the project.

Quote from: ARMEN
Absolutely precise, codie. That's what bothers me the most. No centralized authority. No quality-control. "Dudes" decide, "dudes" choose, "dudes" this or that. Instead of global poll for every change and elementary constancy in sNews roadmapping. If there's any, that is...

Who told you I'd like extras sections support in the core? I don't.
And it's going to take some time to figure out how to get rid of them.
MOD it was, MOD it should stay. I don't want another table. See? "Dudes" aren't the center of the world.

@ Armen... good to have you back in the discussion. Your points are also well taken. We "Dudes" know you do care about the future direction of sNews and that's why we appreciate your comments in the first place. We could get into long-winded discussions about the merits of "Centralized Authority" vs "Decision-making by Consensus" (which are diametrically opposed in premise) and... if so... (in keeping with good organizational principles) it should be done in a NEW topic under GENERAL DISCUSSION.  :)

Be assured... the Dudes are reading and learning from this whole 1.7RC experience. Please respect that. Let's end the bickering and get on  with working together for the better good of the sNews Project.  :)

P.S. (This has been one of the liveliest and fruit-bearing discussions we've had in some time. Great.)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 07:02:45 PM by Keyrocks »
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Armen

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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2008, 07:03:33 PM »

Quote from: Key
Did we consult openly on the short-list with all Forum members? No... we did not. And perhaps that was an error in judgement. Perhaps it would have been useful to conduct a poll before actually starting the project.

Thank GOD...

Sure it would have been! So why not try it again?

And release "sNews 1.7" and not this "RC" or whatever it is, huh?

That's the point.

If there's none of the founding fathers to decide, let community exchange ideas and vote.
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centered

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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2008, 07:06:37 PM »

@Dom: This was discussed here already. Some of dudes clearly expressed that they don't need kind of a roadmap/priorities/whatever because RCs will do instead. Absolute classic :(

Absolutely precise, codie. That's what bothers me the most. No centralized authority. No quality-control. "Dudes" decide, "dudes" choose, "dudes" this or that. Instead of global poll for every change and elementary constancy in sNews roadmapping. If there's any, that is...

Who told you I'd like extras sections support in the core? I don't.
And it's going to take some time to figure out how to get rid of them.
MOD it was, MOD it should stay. I don't want another table. See? Wow! Another opinion. The opposite one, that is!

I do agree a roadmap would be helpful as well, I have made that statement before as well. You also need to look at what is "core worthy" and mod worthy as well.  It made sense to put a multiple extra addition in the core since the popularity of Keyrock's 2 add'tl extras mod.  The statement about removing extras is asinine since some don't use comments but I am not ready to take out the comment's code (a good portion of the engine).

Let me ask you, the users, What do you see as a potential roadmap?  And really think about what sNews is before you mention OpenID, WYSIWYG editors, etc...
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Armen

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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2008, 07:10:05 PM »

Let me ask you, the users, What do you see as a potential roadmap?  And really think about what sNews is before you mention OpenID, WYSIWYG editors, etc...

(I think roadmap and ideas need their personal thread)
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Keyrocks

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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2008, 07:11:25 PM »

Quote from: Key
Did we consult openly on the short-list with all Forum members? No... we did not. And perhaps that was an error in judgement. Perhaps it would have been useful to conduct a poll before actually starting the project.

Thank GOD...
Sure it would have been! So why not try it again?
And release "sNews 1.7" and not this "RC" or whatever it is, huh?
That's the point.

@ Armen... honestly and up front... I don't know what it is about you that seems to rub me the wrong way. Perhaps it's has more to do with our different backgrounds than anything else.
... There is no need to use a "condescending" tone in your posts. We did get your point. I and none of the other "Dudes" are on your "payroll"... OK?
While we focus on improving the Development Process... perhaps you might concentrate on demonstrating a greater degree of "sincerety" in your communications with others... it does go a long way towards building better working relationships.  :)


Quote from: ARMEN
Let me ask you, the users, What do you see as a potential roadmap?  And really think about what sNews is before you mention OpenID, WYSIWYG editors, etc...

(I think roadmap and ideas need their personal thread)

Agreed. Feel free to start a new Topic EQ.  ;D
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 07:13:49 PM by Keyrocks »
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codetwist

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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2008, 07:14:12 PM »

@Dom: This was discussed here already. Some of dudes clearly expressed that they don't need kind of a roadmap/priorities/whatever because RCs will do instead. Absolute classic :(


Absolutely precise, codie. That's what bothers me the most. No centralized authority. No quality-control. "Dudes" decide, "dudes" choose, "dudes" this or that. Instead of global poll for every change and elementary constancy in sNews roadmapping. If there's any, that is...

Who told you I'd like extras sections support in the core? I don't.
And it's going to take some time to figure out how to get rid of them.
MOD it was, MOD it should stay. I don't want another table. See? Wow! Another opinion. The opposite one, that is!

And for those, who say this is just an RC: do you really think all those mods were added by "dudes", so "dudes" would get rid of them in the future? They've already decided on that. Mods stay. Got it? Fine, fine, we did.

But since some of the "dudes" may not know the meaning of the "RC" term, I'll help:
RC means "Release Candidate". It's not a BETA. It's an RC. That means it wouldn't change much.

If you want community to decide, which mods to include in the core, release BETA, not RC, like a bunch of people decide for the whole community.

RC is for bughunting. Not code-revision. BETA's for such things.

So my reaction was perfectly normal: "They are calling THIS an RC???"

Noooo, thank you. I'll pass. I'll stick with 1.6.

@Armen: Mhm ... well, I'd say that it's ok for Dudes to decide and all. Including to decide on ways how to gather input. So, they want to gather input post factum with RCs - IMO it's their rights absolutely even if it implies ignoring users.
Is any particular sNews user ok with such approach and what to do about it - that's different story for any particular user. If one can code then IMHO there is no use to create fuss in relation to item with so small codebase anyway. But that's me.
 
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Armen

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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2008, 07:18:28 PM »

... There is no need to use a "condescending" tone in your posts. We did get your point. I and none of the other "Dudes" are on your "payroll"... OK?
While we focus on improving the Development Process... perhaps you might concentrate on demonstrating a greater degree of "sincerety" in your communications with others... it does go a long way towards building better working relationships.  :)

There is need, Key. That's the only way to "shake the tower with Mao on top", if you catch my drift.

I'm a very polite person, Key, but when somebody thinks he's better than others for no reason and makes big decisions without warning, I stand on my point of view, and speak for myself. Others are welcome to do the same.

Quote
it does go a long way towards building better working relationships

I thought good working relationships were stable and would hold for some "domestic disturbance".

Quote
@Armen: Mhm ... well, I'd say that it's ok for Dudes to decide and all. Including to decide on ways how to gather input. So, they want to gather input post factum with RCs - IMO it's their rights absolutely even if it implies ignoring users.
Is any particular sNews user ok with such approach and what to do about it - that's different story for any particular user. If one can code then IMHO there is no use to create fuss in relation to item with so small codebase anyway. But that's me.

I love sNews, and I can code: all of sNews installations I deployed were 30% non-snews inside. New functions, new abilities, removed unneeded abilities. But there's a limit. Hard to tell, codie.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 07:22:11 PM by Armen »
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Joost

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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2008, 07:23:15 PM »

@Armen

The extra content is not in table extras. This table only contains the name of the position (footer, header). With little change, it can do without table extras.
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Armen

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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2008, 07:25:05 PM »

Quote
Who thinks they're better than others?  What are these big decisions that have been made?

1.7 itself inside is a one big decision.

@Armen

The extra content is not in table extras. This table only contains the name of the position (footer, header). With little change, it can do without table extras.

Idea is for the user to be able to easily migrate from 1.6/1.5 to 1.7 and maybe back if smth's wrong. And I don't see 1.7 to be ready for this with all the changes.

I guess 2.xx branch could bring some drastic changes, but not the 1.xx branch. Compability is the key.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 07:28:53 PM by Armen »
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Armen

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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2008, 07:26:57 PM »

Quote
Who thinks they're better than others?  What are these big decisions that have been made?

1.7 itself inside is a one big decision.
1.7 was inevitable & has been in discussion since the release of 1.6, it was no "fly by night" decision.

You didn't get me right. THIS piece of code is to be called "sNews 1.7". Thats what I meant.
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