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Author Topic: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC  (Read 54067 times)

Armen

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Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« on: April 06, 2008, 09:12:57 AM »

Hello again. Let's be serious for a minute here.

As you know, in the world, many projects evolve, bloom and bring joy to the users. Some of them become widely used and popular.
But some of them suddenly die. But is their death so sudden? Not at all! It's consecutive.

First I'd like to start with Luka's idea: "sNews as a ONE-file CMS. Simple, but powerful."

Up to it's 1.6 version, sNews was following its creator's dream: small, logical, ONE-file-driven, not overloaded with useless junk and well designed.

Sorry mates. With upcoming release of 1.7 you're going to obliterate sNews, NOT improve it.

Why? Ohhhhhhh... There are SOOO many reasons why... I'll tell you. But first of all, I'd like to thank EQ, Phil, Codie and Joost (and Bob?) for doing something REALLY connected to "upgrading" and not "overloading and obliterating" sNews. Thank you guys. Keep on going.

As for others and their ideas... Sorry mates. I'm completely blown away by the results.

Lets see some of those 1.7 "achievements":

PROS:
(+) Speed improvement. Yes, you did it Joost! Your quieries work extremely fast. Well done.
(+) Admin articles filtering. Good idea. But drafty in its implementation.

PROS ENDS HERE. (Surprised? Me too.)
-------------------------------------------------

CONS:

(-) "Stock" template is GOD-AWFUL ! Have you even looked at it it after finishing it? It's horrible! And for CSS-styles. Are you kidding me??? IE-specific styles? In such a simple template??? Template for sNews HAS to be as simple as possible! Forget additional CSS styles! This is not funny! Bring back old template before you infuriate the GOD himself. sNews template is just for presentation and this... This is a-w-f-u-l.
(-) Thank you invabrass. Thank you for introduction of GLOBAL-scope variables. Thank you SO much.
I'm not going to tell you why I'm SO happy, I'm just going to point you here: http://php.net/global
As one smart person said: "Hmm, globals are a pretty poor solution and are pretty much forbidden in object oriented programming."
Thank you once again.
(-) thumbs.dll file in sNews package. Bravo!
(-) What the hell have you done to the "readme.html" file??? Who did this? Those colors, those margins! Is it now written for aliens or for people witout taste? Repulsive spectacle... And the purple line at the top of the file? So sweet...
(-) Thank you for the new table: extras. Do extras need their own table? You're kidding, right? RIGHT??? Wasn't that invabrass' idea again?
(-) new site() function sucks balls. (BTW: before it, everything worked fine even without RewriteBase parameter in .htaccess.). It's redunant and useless. Generates wrong base-hrefs.
(-) Readme says: "ONE-file CMS" and after that: "sNews consists of one ‘engine’ file (snews.php), one language file (snews_EN.php), one XHTML file (index.php) for content presentation, one stylesheet (style.css) for content styling and one javascript file for functionality". Are you kidding? You think this is funny? You've splitted snews for NO REASON. js() and l() worked just fine inside snews. Why touch them? And, btw, "admin.js" needs translation. Yeah. You even *ucked up here. Instead of using js() inside snews with language vars, or at least calling language-vars you use hardcoded sentences. Bravo!
(-) This:

is awful. Can't you see it? I'm not only talking about margins here. Split them with "|"...
(-) And moooooore...

So...
I'm stunned.

If you release THIS abomination as "sNews 1.7 final", I'll leave this forum forever.
I'll stick with sNews 1.6 and release an unlimited-subcat version based on 1.6 - the latest REAL sNews.

Thank you for your attention.

P.S. This post stinks, but it stays here the way it was written.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 02:56:42 PM by Keyrocks »
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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2008, 01:10:57 PM »

First, Armen... this type of behavior is NOT accepted. You are, by all means, entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to personal attacks, and furthermore putting someones words and opinions out to be a truth without having something to back it up with...

I will not argue with you on what works better as I have not the knowhow, you beat me on this any day, I'm sure. But I will, however, stand up and tell you off as you are exceeding the limit of bad behavior.

Luka's statements and opinions are his, and his alone, which you cannot bring out of context and use as you see fit. Have you been involved in any way during development of sNews 1.7, and heard (viewed) Lukas opinion, as you see them, being told. Have you ? Is there any chance, do you think, that Luka have OK'ed this development ?

You can mention all of the pro's and con's in a entirly different manner, Armen. There is no fecking need for all the dripping irony and personal attacks.

Just STOP this, and do it now, man. What is released is an RC, and if you would bring forward reasonable critisism, and furthermore come up with a better way of dealing with things, which would improve what you think is not improved, then, possibly then would anyone listen to your, what I can't descibe as nothing else than "rantings from a disappointed user". there is not a single constructive critisism in your post. Do you sincerely believe anyone will listen to it ? My advice to you is to edit your post as soon as possible, and make it non ironic, constrictive, and toned down.

I am stunned. I am dissapointed at this behavior from what I have come to think was a distinguished member of the sNews form.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 02:57:05 PM by Keyrocks »
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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2008, 01:13:50 PM »


CONS:

(-) Thank you invabrass. Thank you for introduction of GLOBAL-scope variables. Thank you SO much.
I'm not going to tell you why I'm SO happy, I'm just going to point you here: http://php.net/global
As one smart person said: "Hmm, globals are a pretty poor solution and are pretty much forbidden in object oriented programming."
Thank you once again.

(-) thumbs.dll file in sNews package. Bravo!
(-) What the hell have you done to the "readme.html" file??? Who did this? Those colors, those margins! Is it now written for aliens or for people witout taste? Repulsive spectacle... And the purple line at the top of the file? So sweet...
(-) Thank you for the new table: extras. Do extras need their own table? You're kidding, right? RIGHT??? Wasn't that invabrass' idea again?
(-) new site() function sucks balls. (BTW: before it, everything worked fine even without RewriteBase parameter in .htaccess.). It's redunant and useless. Generates wrong base-hrefs.
(-) Readme says: "ONE-file CMS" and after that: "sNews consists of one ‘engine’ file (snews.php), one language file (snews_EN.php), one XHTML file (index.php) for content presentation, one stylesheet (style.css) for content styling and one javascript file for functionality". Are you kidding? You think this is funny? You've splitted snews for NO REASON. js() and l() worked just fine inside snews. Why touch them? And, btw, "admin.js" needs translation. Yeah. You even *ucked up here. Instead of using js() inside snews with language vars, or at least calling language-vars you use hardcoded sentences. Bravo!
(-) This:

is awful. Can't you see it? I'm not only talking about margins here. Split them with "|"...
(-) And moooooore...

2. Explain why globals are bad.
3. Your kidding, this is a RC. I didn't see a complaint about the DS_Store file or the .Mac folder...
5. The table is for extra groupings (http://snewscms.com/forum/index.php?topic=6742.0)
6. Do you have a link of something to reference that bug?
7. The Language file is meant to be downloadable and placed in the languages folder and changed in the settings. JS is only for the admin section, so it doesn't "really" need to be a part of the core (wonders if same argument would have been applied to 1.4 - js was everywhere and not needed).  Hardcoded sentences, in the core, where?
8. It's an RC... this can be fixed with CSS
9. What more?  Can you be constructive and list items you feel are bugs (alot are valid IMO) and improvements in the bugs forum.  I, at least, would like to hear your ideas and suggestions.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 02:57:23 PM by Keyrocks »
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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2008, 01:26:09 PM »

Hidden in your post were at least two valid points completely swamped out by your sarcastic (bordering on hateful) tone. I wish you had approached this in a different way.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 02:57:40 PM by Keyrocks »
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Armen

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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2008, 01:38:26 PM »

First, Armen... this type of behavior is NOT accepted. You are, by all means, entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to personal attacks, and furthermore putting someones words and opinions out to be a truth without having something to back it up with...
Have you been involved in any way during development of sNews 1.7, and heard (viewed) Lukas opinion, as you see them, being told. Have you ?

I'm a nobody, Patric.
Rui and You made it perfectly clear. It's okay, relax.

As soon as sNews 1.7 is out, I'm out of here for good.
Great idea needs constancy. There's not much of such an idea in the further development that "sNews Dudes" back up.
Go on, turn sNews into code dump, but don't forget that real consistent sNews builds belong to Luka and Mika, not you.

BTW: Interested, what I expected would be 1.7? Here: subcats, sql improvements, best boosters in the core, code cleanup, archive and sitemap speedups, article insertion mod, codie's admin mod, bugfixes. That's it. Small steps are the best for the development.

Call me any way you want, my behaviour is a sane behavoiur of a person, expecting something consecutive and getting something completely opposite. We were expecting sNews and what did we get? A code dump. A sandbox for "sNews Dudes". Luka and Mika would never let that happen.

Quote
Hidden in your post were at least two valid points completely swamped out by your sarcastic (bordering on hateful) tone. I wish you had approached this in a different way.

I wish 1.7 was built only by Luka and Mika, so it wouldn't happen at all.

Quote
I am stunned. I am dissapointed at this behavior from what I have come to think was a distinguished member of the sNews form.

One post changes it all? Good thinking, Patrick.

Equilni, you're a really good fellow. But I don't want to participate in development of... this. Ask "sNews Dudes". I'm sure they'll be able to help.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 02:58:00 PM by Keyrocks »
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Patric Ahlqvist

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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2008, 01:51:55 PM »

Rui and I made what clear ? And where ?

Quote
One post changes it all? Good thinking, Patrick.

Well, you don't improve on your "distinguish level" by posting this crap, Armen.. If you don't have more critisism someone could really benefit from, why wait for 1.7 release, why not leave now ?

I am sincerely interested in what constructive suggestions you have, as this is what RC is for... For God sake, man... If there is something that is not right, this is the place and time to say so, not just rant about things and feeling sorry for one's self. But you persist in not delivering such constructive critisism... Why ?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 02:58:18 PM by Keyrocks »
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Armen

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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2008, 01:58:21 PM »

Rui and I made what clear ? And where ?

Quote from: Patrick, a minute ago
Have you been involved in any way during development of sNews 1.7, and heard (viewed) Lukas opinion, as you see them, being told. Have you ?

Oh, sorry. I haven't. Just minding my own business here.

Patrick... I'm not here to increase my post count with useless argues. I'll wait for the result: Luka or Mika comes in, or "sNews Dudes" finalize this 127kb piece of code and call it "sNews 1.7".
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 02:58:34 PM by Keyrocks »
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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2008, 02:00:00 PM »

I will leave this thread for an hour or two before I do something head over heals... I'm going to a party with my kids.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 02:58:51 PM by Keyrocks »
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funlw65

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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2008, 02:18:41 PM »

Please, forgive Armen, I bet tomorrow will see this with different eyes. Is already cooled down :). About not included things, I think we all can add what we want later. The fundation is very important. One thing it worry me: the new function cleanXSS is enough tested?

P.S. I`m not agreed with Armen`s reaction but this prove one thing: Armen is in love with sNews! Yes, Luka can settle things down making a presentation of sNews ... as is done everywhere....

Forgive me if is not my business...

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Now ogres, oh, they're much worse. They'll make a suit from your freshly peeled skin. They'll shave your liver, squeeze the jelly from your eyes... Actually, it's quite good on toast

But Donkey know is not true  ;)


« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 02:59:12 PM by Keyrocks »
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Keyrocks

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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2008, 05:28:26 PM »

Quote from: ARMEN
Hello again. Let's be serious for a minute here.

As you know, in the world, many projects evolve, bloom and bring joy to the users. Some of them become widely used and popular.
But some of them suddenly die. But is their death so sudden? Not at all! It's consecutive.

First I'd like to start with Luka's idea: "sNews as a ONE-file CMS. Simple, but powerful."

@ Armen...
I agree with you on some points but... before you make any decision to leave the Jolly Green sNews Forest Forever... let's clarify a few things first.

1) This RC package was released - as RC packages generally are - as part of the "Input Gathering Phase". None of the alternations in this RC package (beyond the core improvements) are irreversible or carved in stone.

2) The eventual configuration of the "final release" of sNews 1.7 may well be different than that of the RC package. This is to be expected... again... since this is an "Input Gathering Phase".

3) We seek the opinions of all Forum members openly and... in return... expect that those who provide "Input" will do so in a constructive manner... one that contributes to improving sNews in a positive way. We understand that there is always the possibility an Ogre (or two) might get their tongues stuck between their teeth for a moment in time and spit out some regrettable garble... that's life.

You (Armen the Ogre) obviously took this opportunity to provide your input seriously since you went to great lengths to spell out many concerns in your initial post. This suggests you really care about the direction sNews takes in the future. We respect that. Your intent, then, is not to "leave sNews Forever" but to take whatever action you can to make sure the "Dudes" stay on what you believe is the "right track".

4) Mika has not been involved with the sNews project for quite some time now. We miss his valuable contributions too and would have loved to work with him on the 1.7 project.  However... Mika chose to re-focus his mission in life on other priorities last summer. His last visit to these Forums (last time I checked) was sometime last October (2007).

5)  Luka has been very busy working on projects other than sNews for quite some time as well. He chose to appoint 2 Dudes as "1.7 Project Leads". Their job was to enlist the volunteer involvement of several other Dudes. Luka then chose to let the Dev Team(s) choose the list of improvements to be made and take care of the whole process - up to the RC release - on their own.

6) What would be included in the re-development of sNews was determined by a poll of all of the sNews Dudes. The Dudes listed what they believed were the most important items for consideration. I believe there were close to (or more than) 34 items listed... far too many. The list was significantly shortened over a couple of weeks. Luka reviewed the list of inclusions and demonstrated his support of the final short-list.

7) Some of the changes made were not in the "short-list" of items that was prepared before the project started. They were added uding the last few days while getting the RC package prepared for release. Some are certainly reversible. But some make good practical sense to those who agreed to add them in.

Again... all constructive input and suggestions will be considered during this Input Gathering Phase. Negative and personal attacks will be ignored (We are not donkeys). Feel free to edit your original post in any way you wish so that we might consider the positive suggestions provided theren.  ;)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 02:59:31 PM by Keyrocks »
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Rui Mendes

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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2008, 05:31:21 PM »

First I'd like to start with Luka's idea: "sNews as a ONE-file CMS. Simple, but powerful."
We dudes, decided (by votes) to split all javascript from the core (php), and put inside js folder. Is better for simple user to understand the code, and js is only available when you are logged, so less code for a visitor.

Like Doug (@Key) said, "None of the alternations in this RC package (beyond the core improvements) are irreversible or carved in stone."

PROS:
1 - (+) Speed improvement. Yes, you did it Joost! Your queries work extremely fast. Well done.
2 - (+) Admin articles filtering. Good idea. But drafty in its implementation.

1 - Yes Joost/Invrass did good work. I contribute a lot doing queries and fix some errors. Remember this is a hard work from snewsdudes.
2 -  Joost and me, we populate our database with many records. So I add articles filtering (miss Fillmoz filter by category), sorry about drafty, me and dudes we try make better.

(-) "Stock" template is GOD-AWFUL.
I'm not a webdesigner but I like the template, it's my opinion.
Maybe more complicate from snews16, but maybe (I said maybe) works better in all browsers.
My friend, seems you understand css, you can make some templates for sNews 1.7 final and share with us on appropiate section (templates)

As one smart person said: "Hmm, globals are a pretty poor solution and are pretty much forbidden in object oriented programming."
OOP is more complex, Luka wants snews very simple for users.

(-) thumbs.dll file in sNews package. Bravo!
Come on..., we forget. If you use windows this file is hidden.

(-) Thank you for the new table: extras. Do extras need their own table? You're kidding, right? RIGHT??? Wasn't that invabrass' idea again?
If you use multiple extras in diferent areas, yes is better. I think is EQ ideia (not sure).

(-) new site() function sucks balls. (BTW: before it, everything worked fine even without RewriteBase parameter in .htaccess.). It's redunant and useless. Generates wrong base-hrefs.
Maybe you're right about this, that's why we have sNews 1.7 RC.

Rui and I made what clear ? And where ?
I'm confuse too, where? I think only told you by PM this version has one level subcategories

If you release THIS abomination as "sNews 1.7 final", I'll leave this forum forever.
I'll stick with sNews 1.6 and release an unlimited-subcat version based on 1.6 - the latest REAL sNews.
Please don't give up, I'm counting on you to have unlimited subcategories. I really apreciate your work and respect your ideias.

Best reagards, my friend
Thank you,
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 02:59:52 PM by Keyrocks »
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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2008, 06:02:04 PM »

(-) Thank you invabrass. Thank you for introduction of GLOBAL-scope variables. Thank you SO much.
I'm not going to tell you why I'm SO happy, I'm just going to point you here: http://php.net/global
As one smart person said: "Hmm, globals are a pretty poor solution and are pretty much forbidden in object oriented programming."
Thank you once again.

The global variables were introduced not on a whim. I had stress-tested snews extensively with several categories and thousands of articles. And I had developed several solutions and tested them, among the globals performed best... I had elaborated it in many of my previous post. Yes, I do agree that globals are poor solution. But then again, PHP itself is a crappy language. So why don't we ditch PHP and re-code snews in C++?

Besides, where did you find OOP code in sNews? Hell, I'll bet 10 bucks if you can even find the word "class" in the entire snews.php file. Just because mixing globals with OOP code is not smart, doesn't mean that globals are bad for snews. Because snews ain't OOP.

(-) Thank you for the new table: extras. Do extras need their own table? You're kidding, right? RIGHT??? Wasn't that invabrass' idea again?

You are wrong again. The extra table was not my idea. It may improve performances, but I'm not sure until I look at it deeply.
However, I did suggest total revamp of the database schema, (no offence but the original schema looked like it was designed by a newbie). I had suggested introducing indexes, referential integrity, constraints into the database. None of them had been implemented in the RC version as of this writing.

I had reported a bug some time ago, i.e. there were lots of orphan comments in the table after the parent article was deleted. This kind of errors can be avoided if foreign key constraints are introduced.

Indexes are also a must, since there are lots of SQL statements like these in the code:
Code: [Select]
SELECT ..... WHERE some_field = "some_variable"
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 03:00:12 PM by Keyrocks »
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invarbrass

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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2008, 06:11:43 PM »

(-) thumbs.dll file in sNews package. Bravo!

must you be an PITA and pick on every little mistake? someone clearly overlooked the cache file while archiving the entire site. it's just a harmless file.

btw, it's thumbs.db, not thumbs.dll. Is it your eye-sight or is it just a spelling mistake which converted a .db file into a DLL library?  ;)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 03:00:35 PM by Keyrocks »
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Sasha

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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2008, 04:02:51 AM »

There are 15,189 people in the U.S. with the first name Sasha.

Statistically the 1495th most popular first name.

More than 99.9 percent of people with the first name Sasha are female.

Names similar to Sasha:  Alexandria    8)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 03:00:53 PM by Keyrocks »
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Re: Pros & Cons: Changes in sNews 1.7RC
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2008, 04:37:11 AM »

Wow! That is interesting Sasha!. Maybe we should rename some functions in sNews by peoples names that have helped.

Did you notice that there were 22,100,000 'Sasha' entries in Google. There is even one 'Sasha Alexander'

We could rename things like function categories() to function bakercad() or function_db to function codetwist() etc etc

I reserve the right, if this is unamimously approved, to have function populate() named after me. ;D LOL

If we did this then, then there would be something to get personal about.

Hey fellas anyone single? I just thought of a really corny pickup line someone can try. (nothing personal here!) i.e Hi my name is 'JackpRC'. Fancy trying me out?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 03:01:12 PM by Keyrocks »
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